!BDNSM3N@Md(X 2x[ Da{.}F OBXdX @Y Z[[d@\\$@]p<^>D@clLb`TcTX@_\@dhgib@a(@@X@g(  @p<P Bo@DeH?LeP@2 P@2 LeLeLeX@lZ\e#) 0N0zR]P@^\6J6S=XdX @YZ[[d@\\$@]p<^>D@clLb`TcTX@_\@dhgib@a(@@X@g(  @p<P Bo@DeH?LeP@2 P@2 LeLeLeX@lZ\e#) .J.3*f(&)Z gg ) +H+f!0a(","-./ a  +$Lq1P1mBXdX @YZ[[d@\\$@]p(\>,]>0@^Z ) 3R3~A z@T [4 "@6 @?D 8T Z#@\g``d1h@(: @Q @@`@@#@@R   O  @ @ @ @ @fR  O $ Z ) ZRZ^Z|@| 06 6 6gg ZdX1?|@|88:<  647B W8 X9 0 , @ ( gg X|@|889;  0ggh, h8 h0 /h4ppp p$ p(  LY 5ZK|@|@@BE 6<7$ B  W@ XA8 4  @( 0 ggg Z{dz|@|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ['P"BZ|@|   77 7gg Zd[]zR|@| @9 gg R\\\4 @ 4>\(oNRb|@`|  fgg" JPapd]$T|24 @066 6  4>],Z'L @`0g5 x-IDd.Personal Folders ,<LZp^0ӝ4 @066 6  4>^<U|@`| 06 6 6gg"b" b Top of Personal FoldersSearch Root Zf_X?`%h@?_(Nbh|@|HHJM  647B WH XI 0 , @ ( @0< 08ggD t`s_(aiIT @0`066 6 Top of Personal Folders <S`LbL!|@`| 06 6 6ggAirplane Stuff Z`v,b#gQ^ @0`066 6 Deleted ItemsDeleted Items folder <I]lcDV;H @0`066 6 Search Root <GTcT @`05555g5 x-IDd.Personal Folders5 x-IDd."5 x-IDd.B5 x-IDd.b L\ld\*(d{+ % l" m3( l ]?(vg50!^u1a  ? _ @zm yaX}t (FfX+3( rn 0'|@`| 06 6 6ggBB Deleted ItemsInbox ZfXg ޼ @0`066 6 6`66InboxInbox folder!_3)Hԙ YP@Messages!_3)Hԙ YP(  \ammmmmmmThz]t @0`66 6 66Airplane StuffIPF.NoteLMessages DRZthiو |@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg' ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jeikaq"|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg3 ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jein@?U8T\ߌ`d@ZiZ ?(fj.?_@zoCwP ߂ $(@^mm <D?H_L@nBSݷl|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUk`q Qdpx|߁@vsv&49EMߘQU@|JMu@?\_dhl@bqbS .@ @~0 /  @v/9v0 Z@$) xPh % @ @/G)@ G@8' @ih \@ _ Vf  $@ *@@, 04s 8LT`z f@@h@/lp@/t" ^ f@ n @ ?@C @@70@]Z@g$) zQ&Ff&Ff fft"@(8,@K <FD|L&RT^Ld@z@z@z@z@z@f& ) &&1Cd|@`|TTVY   T  $ 000  09( 9, @:U q:0_4_8_<_@_D_H_L_Pgg+ @`SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'SMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Abc߄@:T?(0?4_8@n.I ?Qd `IPM.Note @# &) + .679@; A@B`depq    @ `  @  ()_>  B@0@0@ 0?N Y@ef `   }F^@m{loX`_ aCongested Areas01aSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgCongested AreasahҹG6j+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORGSMTPbill@part103.org Fa!_3)Hԙ YP€00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.org00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.orgIMAYBEABLETOPUTMY02INTOTHEFAAREGARDINGWHATCONSTITUTESACONGESTEDAREATHESTAGEISAFAAHEARINGROOMWITHAJUD10.0part103.org00000006bill@part103.org'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'  -5K$(8@X}#.Gd͖=d|@`|TTVY   T  $ 000  09( 9, @:U q:0_4_8_<_@_D_H_L_Pgg @`SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'SMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Abc@ydI may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org {b޸ LZFuF rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I y be l`to pu@rm0.0@ tBh`FAA  g  g w@tita b6gdp a. T a!!B `p  h!!jud!"4Fp "PPG#pa*vfwov!06 `n"r ^t"0`B$ #lqrfel@"wa!a," co 2*r l0@R0!v p `F' q&ct'%',3!'r @!m Sts"2"( 1^?"*2b$dy. "R'"\no@@*py occu%!$Sc-+pp 50%' f 5bY3I'!)kal m d6A*#?) :8tws:31)=7c%`gh1/'cd5,3s6p'  (ob c,Q'21e)32>_?o@{%/`A@1r:C4pnk pd.0+,3B W @s 3bK@ t10T3.g3}Ms:|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg# ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei$d'@1Pltx߅|@rryTl `IPM.Note @# &) + .679@; A@B`depq    @ `  @  ()>  B@0@0@ 0?N Y@efX `   y*3vO+3XˀaaCongested Areasx~aSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgCongested AreasatxjL\% ʦ+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORGSMTPbill@part103.orgR a!_3)Hԙ YP€00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.org00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.orgIMAYBEABLETOPUTMY02INTOTHEFAAREGARDINGWHATCONSTITUTESACONGESTEDAREATHESTAGEISAFAAHEARINGROOMWITHAJUD<00eb01c5e402$b9ea8870$09000032@bill>10.0part103.org00000006bill@part103.org'FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com'  -5K$(8@X}+/:Sk m-<|@`|TTVY   T  $ 000  09( 9, @:U q:0_4_8_<_@_D_H_L_Pgg @`SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com'FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com'SMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com A];XWI may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org {b޸ LZFuF rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I y be l`to pu@rm0.0@ tBh`FAA  g  g w@tita b6gdp a. T a!!B `p  h!!jud!"4Fp "PPG#pa*vfwov!06 `n"r ^t"0`B$ #lqrfel@"wa!a," co 2*r l0@R0!v p `F' q&ct'%',3!'r @!m Sts"2"( 1^?"*2b$dy. "R'"\no@@*py occu%!$Sc-+pp 50%' f 5bY3I'!)kal m d6A*#?) :8tws:31)=7c%`gh1/'cd5,3s6p'  (ob c,Q'21e)32>_?o@{%/`A@1r:C4pnk pd.0+,3B W @s 3bK@ t10T3.g3}MȠs:|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg/ ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei̦ Ul|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggG ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkХPspXy?_@Q$ߊ,04*&When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !A+ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @@i! ( )@*?` ?5BEF0@0@ 0?Nef @_ `!"#$%& '@()`*+,-./ p߽G%N ccUL: Congested AreasA&aSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill Watson+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPbill@part103.orgCongested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com9b00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillIMAYBEABLETOPUTMY02INTOTHEFAAREGARDINGWHATCONSTITUTESACONGESTEDAREATHESTAGEISAFAAHEARINGROOMWITHAJUD<004601c5e561$eeb9f580$09000032@bill><00eb01c5e402$b9ea8870$09000032@bill>sentto-371046-67920-1131563843-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511091923531116253039$2e33900Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comultraliteteacherFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626bill@part103.orggroups-email71.5.47.69Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339001116253039$2e339001:12:0:0 339001116253039 33901FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com: Tdlt'^b%)=AU8Y{ 7i!)2 P.JReturn-Path: Received: from n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.16]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9JHQwY026543 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:17:29 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=tQ2wFVYc+etCAkCWwjh52JxAihPRe0lAmW/xR5fwa/1arYRTm/L6av3lp/kjkMAqqMvbhyZqTCGYiz5MMwHg2vyoQe0ACurFqSH5O3bYVGM0N6ipImHn8r7+hm14AoEv; Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:17:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.99] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:17:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bill@part103.org X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61045 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 19:17:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 19:17:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helmethouse.com) (71.5.47.69) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 19:17:22 -0000 Received: from bill (bill [50.0.0.9]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jA9JFHM6026349 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:15:20 -0800 To: Message-ID: <004601c5e561$eeb9f580$09000032@bill> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00eb01c5e402$b9ea8870$09000032@bill> X-Originating-IP: 71.5.47.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bill Watson" X-Yahoo-Profile: ultraliteteacher Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:15:22 -0800 Subject: UL: Congested Areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 33901 Status: O X-UID: 33900 Content-Length: 1341 X-Keywords: P <I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ eDDvcR;LZFu2A rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I y be l`to pu@rm0.0@ tBh`FAA  g  g w@tita qgdp a. T a!!3 `p  h#ajud!;"p #3!DPPRG#avfwov#p6 `n" t"`B% #lrfel@#Awa!"$,"} c 2+ l{0@R0"!v7 p `' q' ct'+d#p&'-#!](r @"m Sts"#A(1?#2*b% dy.+d+d"(K#2no@@+y occu%"$c,pp 50%'f? +d #14I'k" * kal m d7** o G6f+ 77Dya}V1v `R"MJRW3F> !+dFtp://u2C k.yR[p/dpRU5A/wUILP/yQ,LS]QTB/TMP_`aTU+d"lp3P0t:'ay-ul-'@\ Xw2QURL K4<*U^ ' @W3Gf=4`web,go?e l[f\f/FLY-UL/huuCQR*f, "!eknepXf.oYWB[p-9R#Apaj=l\7m /rmGye4}}P?HHӣI may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ eLLvcR `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @! ( )@:N8` 5BEF0@0@ 0?Nef @߁ `!"#$%& '@()`*+,-. ?t~;IfccPPC Congested AreasaSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill Watson+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comI.b00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillIMAYBEABLETOPUTMY02INTOTHEFAAREGARDINGWHATCONSTITUTESACONGESTEDAREATHESTAGEISAFAAHEARINGROOMWITHAJUD<004501c5e561$dc9a5f20$09000032@bill>sentto-313105-166253-1131563942-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511091923531116253039$2e33901Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comultraliteteacherpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626bill@part103.orggroups-email71.5.47.69Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339011116253039$2e339011:12:0:0 33901powerchutes@yahoogroups.com9 L\dlVZ 26JNb<^0y %/\ FNJ Մt?Return-Path: Received: from n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.39]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9JJN8c026692 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:19:27 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=LQh+EqxfaLfzTaKLH9stmjqDnu6RYNiut2ymZVK+E52ZrOrM2rqgdUJGiWoTs+wtZorOjr0sDU4mUyjFj0PRIlySuf5DrwWf3T6ZMMg1M5w76SMunZpZh2cwQZwUmgKw; Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:19:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.106] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:19:02 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bill@part103.org X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56680 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 19:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 19:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helmethouse.com) (71.5.47.69) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 19:19:01 -0000 Received: from bill (bill [50.0.0.9]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jA9JEkPj026269 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:14:50 -0800 To: Message-ID: <004501c5e561$dc9a5f20$09000032@bill> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 71.5.47.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bill Watson" X-Yahoo-Profile: ultraliteteacher Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:14:51 -0800 Subject: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 33901 Content-Length: 1371 X-Keywords: X ppmօI may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ xlh3LZFuk rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I y be l`to pu@rm0.0@ tBh`FAA  g  g w@tita qgdp a. T a!!3 `p  h#ajud!;"p #3!DPPRG#avfwov#p6 `n" t"`B% #lrfel@#Awa!"$,"} c 2+ l{0@R0"!v7 p `' q' ct'+d#p&'-#!](r @"m Sts"#A(1?#2*b% dy.+d+d"(K#2no@@+y occu%"$c,pp 50%'f? +d #14I'k" * kal m d7** o To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ lh|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg7 ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jeiy8l|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg? ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com JeiK|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggC ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei68$Ol|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggK ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkc]|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggc ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com JeiHT`?h(gfqMd|@`|TTVY   T  $ 000  09( 9, @:U q:0_4_8_<_@_D_H_L_Pgg; @`SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'SMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com AbcW߆@w(0?4_8@.XT5Xdlp߇t@kjP< `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @@( ( )@$X9` ?5EFf@0@0@ 0?oef @_ !#$%& '@()`*+,-./ 0`12ޅNPx63\Ёmc0!XcRE: PPC Congested Areasf.ScSMTP:JZK@TEAMSERVICES.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTJohn Kosowski JrSMTPjzk@teamservices.comJohn Kosowski Jr+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPjzk@teamservices.comPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Zc00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillWHENDOESTHISSHOWTAKEPLACE?-----ORIGINALMESSAGE-----FROM:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPSCOMMAILTO:POWERCHUTES<4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C6@teamail.teamservices.com>sentto-313105-166254-1131564333-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.comTmjc&b200511091926051116253039$2e33902Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.com09 Nov 2005 19:25:22.0130 (UTC) FILETIME=[53DAD320:01C5E563]jzkbbipowerchutes@yahoogroups.comjzk@TeamServices.comgroups-email209.251.94.107Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339021116253039$2e339021:12:0:0 339021116253039 33902powerchutes@yahoogroups.com: l|EU(AEYlp -1LTv=m=C^r~2z  ; IReturn-Path: Received: from n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.44]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9JPY8n027327 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:25:34 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=pfLypPpqgRwkuy/bHOBZ4sDowP20ztZKZNMjKBs1k/tCh6z367W4t6Mcbv0LkS9o0qw6qBNgUa6gJ1l57o5S+CTlJd+2tJbGGTN5j3q0IebQGfY48HWNUsFMwz/wBW/h; Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:25:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.99] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:25:33 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: jzk@TeamServices.com X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5113 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 19:25:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 19:25:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO WEBSERVER.teamservices.com) (209.251.94.107) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 19:25:25 -0000 Received: from teamail.teamservices.com ([172.16.0.4]) by WEBSERVER.teamservices.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:25:22 -0600 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C6@teamail.teamservices.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: PPC Congested Areas Thread-Index: AcXlYobd5eL5zFs/TYan/Jn0CR3XnAAAL/1g To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2005 19:25:22.0130 (UTC) FILETIME=[53DAD320:01C5E563] X-Originating-IP: 209.251.94.107 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "John Kosowski Jr" X-Yahoo-Profile: jzkbbi Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:25:21 -0600 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 33902 Status: O X-UID: 33902 Content-Length: 2010 X-Keywords:  5 w> LZFu_R rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P W"h dotha shoke Qce? -Og @sagezFa:pus@yao `ps.m [cto:"#]&O Belf4 O&B Wa|ts `0!W nday,ove09) 05 1:1*@PMT$ !# 'ubj(aPPCU!n sdeLasI y ) l`$p+0p0.0@ 1AC`FAA  g  g w@tit+03. /. T2. 242 3R`#6jud {5$p 6.G70av3Rfw)Q66 `(6A t5228 7Qlrfe$w/ 45) n3>2r l02R2b05v#0'3:-'6:1'@ (r'.# S'5<01?6b8dy.6;6no@@>y occ#@.8c) p#P 50%;0&2r4 406HKI'._=Q@ 2rm dJ=.12'Aw2R3Qs:1)LPc9a`gh'/;c@{4b@s#@+p 2f'i (ob4c1q1P);B#e)2S_ToU{9PCV+pF"11PXHpk 0dB@Q,&%'>b'1@ t103.g/O/*oQQ +Per+,U-)ede-ugfdD>LQB;hkyTry@.(td5URLQs eBZPtp://#"{#ro/e&%!L lvl(b*e7kerouwv`.e,FuX opf/YWa/d5Y"! G##k_Qcd&~cdefhij/k?lOm_noyozqrotuvwyo{/|?}O~[<*>61P:@yaE#"P` b) g2Q$ u/ :a#@ 5)p#_̆?O,ٜYBuM|-ϟ@.cj /rm }RWhen does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!A+$߈,04@k-*N.0|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei-T@W$T?`_hlp@/f́߉@.?Z@M?_@o.g_@*ѱ?_@'(Kߋ(+ `IPM.Note @# &) + .679@; A@B`depq    @ `  @&  ()B-  B@0@0@ 0?N Y@ef `   8>PBA%BPx`{cPx`{cRE: PPC Congested Areas`_cSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested AreascXI%]F*UL+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORGSMTPbill@part103.orgTmjc!_3)Hԙ YP€00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.org00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.orgASSOONASNOV28,BUTCOULDGETDELAYED-BILL-----ORIGINALMESSAGE-----FROM:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPSCOMMAILTO:<4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C6@teamail.teamservices.com>10.0part103.org00000006bill@part103.org'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'  5=S04DLdSWb{,xCFAs soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ E 3hcr LZFu?S rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP d36P  $so aov 28, bu@Auld g  `y . -B_ - O=g @sa Fa: p!Ip6 `=J tpGGM Klrf@2cwqI~n32QHRGB lEpGRG2EpJv8EƮ'HN.'N4'Ts=rJF N@ya7c30`bgG!8𔵦H_oկK9Oa2T7S J*8 ךAHYu`2.2c /rm3}g5:U9Return-Path: Received: from n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com (n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com [216.155.201.60]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9JR3R1027533 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:27:05 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=QUSZJtX5X1R5CBWnCQuya7WOLYvgmMcVkzIzgsMAfo7Q2Pg0KSy6FI/fqsAYDUm94RAYFixoj+utf9mBAKzSbeypFgBprff3L9fja0QNPRkFmf+OWtWeQ7/dCM8Hz//Q; Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:27:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:26:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.31] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:26:48 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bill@part103.org X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50214 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 19:26:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 19:26:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helmethouse.com) (71.5.47.69) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 19:26:47 -0000 Received: from bill (bill [50.0.0.9]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jA9JQhsj027506 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:26:46 -0800 To: Message-ID: <005101c5e563$8787e3c0$09000032@bill> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C6@teamail.teamservices.com> X-Originating-IP: 71.5.47.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bill Watson" X-Yahoo-Profile: ultraliteteacher Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:26:48 -0800 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 33903 Status: O X-UID: 33903 Content-Length: 2678 X-Keywords: YChp `IPM.Note @# &) + .679@; A@B`depq    @ `  @I  ()?E   _B@0@0@ 0?N Y@ef `   aC0KSp irjRE: PPC Congested AreasUjSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested Areasj 6"KVI\H+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORGSMTPbill@part103.orgj!_3)Hԙ YP€00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.org00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.orgTHEFAADOESNTKNOW-ISUSPECTTHEPILOTMAYNOTKNOW,BUTIDONTKNOW,YOUKNOW?SHOULDANYLARGERSTREETORHIGHWAYORFRE<4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C7@teamail.teamservices.com>10.0part103.org00000006bill@part103.org'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'  5=S04DLdSWb{UNR?_@VW4d p x (w^v C `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @@. ( )@߂lM` 5BEF0@0@ 0?Nef @ `!"#$%& '@()`*+,-./  FбDHPcPcRE: PPC Congested Areas cSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill Watson+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com+c00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillASSOONASNOV28,BUTCOULDGETDELAYED-BILL-----ORIGINALMESSAGE-----FROM:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPSCOMMAILTO:<005101c5e563$8787e3c0$09000032@bill><4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C6@teamail.teamservices.com>sentto-313105-166255-1131564408-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511091929021116253039$2e33903Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comultraliteteacherpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626bill@part103.orggroups-email71.5.47.69Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339031116253039$2e339031:12:0:0 339031116253039 33903powerchutes@yahoogroups.com: Tdlt +bf+>BVZn&Hj4d=MYc Tz mP,œAs soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !^ ܻʫp LZFu x rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP d36P  $so aov 28, bu@Auld g  `y . -B_ - O=g @sa Fa: pqL6 `=Ka tpWGGM Lqlrf@2wqIJn32HSG lEGRGEJvv9F'IO/@'4LOQ'U=rK FpO@ya8Be3bgGq9@5U˹Oa283U1 J*9_ьAYub"<2/яҒ2`.c* /rm M4 }%e$$As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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Yl|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggO ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkaE  " ߏ4 F @R @O'%Y$?_@_zy+@ H ǎF :6 `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@}? `    `@8 ( )@_hko ` 5BEF0@0@ 0?Nef @ `!"#$%&@'`()*+,- .@3 4Ȗ6c@,y*P_fP_fRE: PPC Congested Areas&jfSMTP:DBECK@ATVING.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTDave BeckstromSMTPdbeck@atving.comDave Beckstrom+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPdbeck@atving.comPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comf00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillBILL,IMHOTHEFAASHOULDNOTFOCUSONTHE"CONGESTEDAREA"FROMTHESTANDPOINTOFDEFINITIONINOTHERWORDS,"ISA6LANE<200511091948.jA9Jm8Xa029532@helmethouse.com><004501c5e561$dc9a5f20$09000032@bill>sentto-313105-166256-1131565687-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511091949401116253039$2e33906Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comlamoto4powerchutes@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353dbeck@atving.comgroups-email198.174.40.150========================================Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER,MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=no version=3.0.4REVDNS: This E-mail was sent from a MUA/MTA 198.174.40.188 with no reverse DNS entry.POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339061116253039$2e339061:12:0:0 33906powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; Tdlt#1hl!1DH\`t $,Np&V-=IWO  }  pQkeReturn-Path: Received: from n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com (n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com [216.155.201.61]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9Jm8Xa029532 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:48:13 -0800 Message-Id: <200511091948.jA9Jm8Xa029532@helmethouse.com> Comment: DomainKeys? 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X-Note: ======================================== X-Note: Spam Score: [-1] X-Note: Scan Time: 13:49:05 on 09 Nov 2005 X-Note: Spool File: 35342215.EML X-Note: Server Name: NEMESIS X-Note: SMTP Sender: dbeck@atving.com X-Note: Reverse DNS & IP: [No Reverse DNS] [198.174.40.188] X-Note: Recipient(s): powerchutes@yahoogroups.com X-Note: Country Chain: UNITED STATES->destination X-Note: Failed Weights: REVDNS [6], SPFPASS [-2], Filter_Country [0] X-Note: ======================================== X-Originating-IP: 198.174.40.150 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Dave Beckstrom" X-Yahoo-Profile: lamoto4 Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:48:49 -0600 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER,MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 33906 Content-Length: 3300 X-Keywords: y ]\3Bill, IMHO the FAA should not focus on the "congested area" from the standpoint of definition. In other words, "is a 6 lane street a congested area?" is the wrong question because it leads to debates over the definition or interpretation of "congested area." If you look at the reason for the "congested area" restriction in the FARS it is there for one purpose -- to prevent ultralights from presenting a danger to persons or property on the ground. Thus the question the FAA needs to ask themselves is -- if the PPG had an engine out or failure causing an emergency landing at that location would it present a danger to persons or property? If the answer is no, then case closed. If the pilot could land in the grass and avoid endangering anyone then the congested rule should not apply. The FAA is remiss in not putting the definition of congested into writing. They can't hold someone accountable to something they failed to clearly define. Thus they need to look beyond the FAR to the intent of the FAR which is to protect the non-flying public. If they aren't in danger, then there is no problem. > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Bill Watson > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: PPC Congested Areas > > I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a > congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is > a > PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a > congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to > 'convict' > a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. > > The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the > time > it is. > > I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: > 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to > be > overcome) > 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to > make) > > Thanks in advance, > Bill Watson > bill@part103.org > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: Skyryder@mt.net > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > Files : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ N d=LZFu3A]x rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P B9l, IMHO the F AA sh`ld no@cu  C"ng ea"paCc pdpo @ofD iti . IP`wds, @ 6 `n! @{%0 l?!@%QDws` q P # bap#p%`! $@o bavR#(rD"ap +f N.!@ -y`%`xook @R!s+ _ % ( ERS,5@'d w13 ppp"@)a--*,*"q%@ight !c,0 (`a"p +61,o:ty `" .JThR(V% *00@Qml* %6RCPPG  S g p`"f p @51?)28? nc;0%qd80r0a)0($#pD8U%!9:?#@qw%@$Q)0Dc<IpQD3 0%Nqav"P GC/%wK' hr!ap Py<+<t% m3B5@8+.- h"a*0( #q <%UA;0)0n'@15M0R*![BPW;0B *!K! rS"e#<;0>*0)P]3*R,"s3']?'S6P0t@n-fS85` #@;0!Z3GJD5J:\AmT >6Q}kaOB@sa kcjFa:5oJQBp@yao;ps.!n[* :mn]L OAk@Bel-O- W*1oj`0mW %suGy$N*09$05 1:1vpPMjTpmwnsf jdw@C?! 0jjI ;0) \EV|;0.0@YV g 8c0a a(tx28k@-_! 'R%0` 8`!P%!xjud d* Mc'Qj@v8ew$*%=#C^qrf?0r%w0 $CcQ"0aR SaZRA3vB\5j' a30''@'*0aDA* oa S7Ђb'b"I%1BBbdT|UB%\J&ly[o  )0$HQo0 50%bj#j4I'N1ikJsQRV" %7 a? @'$" s:j1)HPcP`7r/%cdd'r0aso "@ F'  (i(^A*j)j*oae)j2?O[MW"Cj`GpkVC)q_5rqsO)@ t103.goj@6 }lTwBwx Uf )4-;OLukyryu@.%FAU|RLa% 7tp://nnoR/r!L ཆjtb@Bw.y:F] o/#@A/ŝYn! GoѿA?Okj[3E-oZ% 1B߇R;0D @եVr]j/ lJo ϹߺyĿEo¼ÿSO_nɅw.̟rDφD<*wb!@/nJPb$gbpEe!V%n1PC2y)Y)R-L%z"`c: /,?l} )h;dBill, IMHO the FAA should not focus on the "congested area" from the standpoint of definition. In other words, "is a 6 lane street a congested area?" is the wrong question because it leads to debates over the definition or interpretation of "congested area." If you look at the reason for the "congested area" restriction in the FARS it is there for one purpose -- to prevent ultralights from presenting a danger to persons or property on the ground. Thus the question the FAA needs to ask themselves is -- if the PPG had an engine out or failure causing an emergency landing at that location would it present a danger to persons or property? If the answer is no, then case closed. If the pilot could land in the grass and avoid endangering anyone then the congested rule should not apply. The FAA is remiss in not putting the definition of congested into writing. They can't hold someone accountable to something they failed to clearly define. Thus they need to look beyond the FAR to the intent of the FAR which is to protect the non-flying public. If they aren't in danger, then there is no problem. > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Bill Watson > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: PPC Congested Areas > > I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a > congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is > a > PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a > congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to > 'convict' > a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. > > The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the > time > it is. > > I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: > 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to > be > overcome) > 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to > make) > > Thanks in advance, > Bill Watson > bill@part103.org > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: Skyryder@mt.net > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > Files : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ N -l=$ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @4 ( )@߃'!\ ` 5EFf@0@0@ 0?oef @ !#$%& '@()`*+,-.0`12GkXUgZ5jRE: PPC Congested AreasQtgSMTP:JZK@TEAMSERVICES.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTJohn Kosowski JrSMTPjzk@teamservices.comJohn Kosowski Jr+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPjzk@teamservices.comPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comoxg00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillWASTHE6LINEHIGHWAYCONGESTEDATTHETIME?-----ORIGINALMESSAGE-----FROM:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPSCOMMAILTO:<4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C7@teamail.teamservices.com>sentto-313105-166257-1131566100-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.comt j&b200511091955481116253039$2e33909Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.com09 Nov 2005 19:54:55.0356 (UTC) FILETIME=[74C7A3C0:01C5E567]jzkbbipowerchutes@yahoogroups.comjzk@TeamServices.comgroups-email209.251.94.107Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339091116253039$2e339091:12:0:0 33909powerchutes@yahoogroups.com9 dt|=M 9=Qdh|%)DLn5e5;Vjv*r  # e Return-Path: Received: from n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.41]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9Jt16u030266 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:55:02 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=mTFfwi0b66+7pN+BiT+RFMB9J1hywUlH2MBjd9jyd2R6y7FZDYlhsAMVaC7RhHNeshXidAsoVtyvGjZZjHvQ8Ceen4kmhDR+Zni/arZZC0GT8UQJ2z2lgX8E8xu/6xG7; Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:55:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.106] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 19:55:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: jzk@TeamServices.com X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50135 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 19:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 19:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO WEBSERVER.teamservices.com) (209.251.94.107) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 19:54:59 -0000 Received: from teamail.teamservices.com ([172.16.0.4]) by WEBSERVER.teamservices.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:54:55 -0600 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C7@teamail.teamservices.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: PPC Congested Areas Thread-Index: AcXlY5gUyDG6KSJGSxu0S1Nn0djY0AAA9ITA To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2005 19:54:55.0356 (UTC) FILETIME=[74C7A3C0:01C5E567] X-Originating-IP: 209.251.94.107 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "John Kosowski Jr" X-Yahoo-Profile: jzkbbi Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:54:55 -0600 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 33909 Content-Length: 3335 X-Keywords: ΐ4Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ՘lc LZFu] rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P Wa the 6 l Phighway ngXd a@2tq?W - Og @sa Fa: pow us@yahoo `ps.1m [tof:"#]O BBelf O'B ts `0"W sd0b,ove09*05 1:27 PMT%"#(ubj)ARE,0PPC!eA (_ *0*8*b,Qul@ `y . -( !,o$%&*'&HJohKo(wskiO?_:1+ +?NOBRD_EoHI @*p`QoU2m@.0@ Z2FAA  g  g w2p~tUHiX4TAJq[^1\S@ ?]`MA0`jud_Mp `SHWGav]fwS`qp_ t4\\bb3 af3Ga ^?_DRnH`!h22 l@\`R"@vMZ'ad@C'H`c'jCrM1 SQ@_Gae1?`RGR2ddy.H_ek`Rno@@! xoccLac;RpM 50%dP6H]`QqI'H@ 2m dtGCZP w\]s:H1)v~cc0`Q@/ecF^jCsLU + \'1i (ob]cZ[*pHdM1e)H2}~+cmp6U oZHHrfpk dl@j,OPbP@ t103.gX0TP= [AJDU"U/V>UC*pj-u/Lzd5Pkyry@.tURL{#GR tp://LLsM"/yO!=L &FTebTP"%w.yVF /ۚ?/p/HYL! GLӕq/֨ϓߔ/O_ߥ/?O_oϻ?O_ȟɯʿׯ/??Oo؏ٟگۿH<*>_[d@ @ya3@LzTPbRg\MdG4LiPS M/?VY2uvlGbWDFcZ@q /rm}}`$[Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !lcGood thing you don't live near any of them six liners, Bill. 8-) Gary O. The dumb and aging one... 661 746-4780 fax ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> -----Original Message----- From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:15 AM To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Subject: UL: Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ R5tߍ@E"*The FAA doesn't know - I suspect the pilot may not know, but I don't know, you know? Should any 'larger' street or highway or freeway or turnpike or whatever be considered a barrier that no UL has permission to cross at any time due to its being a congested area? Out here, we cross a freeway and/or a highway to go farther than 5 miles from the airport. We have been doing so for 20+ years. This has been done under close (1/2 mile) supervision of FAA tower personnel all that time with their blessings. The freeway crossing is done (by letter of agreement with the tower) at or below 225' AGL. Is it sensible for us to change our ways? Would it make sense to suggest that a major road crossing is not considered a congested area while flying over the length would be? Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:55 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ #LZFu:y\ rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P The FAA don'@kno- I susVp@tpo3@y , |bu@`p `y;`? Sh`ld p' `rg'pt @highwWP %tpn@k[wvb #P p c' UL$a rmi w)`o)!#btq` P*it ' g(Q'#$0(2 za"+O  `w'*%wpd/(`$*g)`f (5R prp. W'@'q a,s1+!-4`k)5nu0c (1/@36)q)v*bof#*/p)5n7 @ )+4 p3!,6%*,67(b3 @:1a 0'-,&3%ply,o'Bw3 ,I~ypBp0bzg135=ABD%F1dKЯI\01띹FYGuOмE ߎtI_Jb cJॷ/rmD}['yOk LZFuA rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P G"op th g Ry` d '@live ne py of1em x1, Bl. 8-) ;  O.!VT`u agb e.$ !V 661 746-478Pfax ~&O'_'> !6-)O#@Zs#e) Fa: FLY-UL@8yah `ps6.[to6:+,]"Beilf O0 b Wats `0 +W sday9 @No`09 @05 11:13AM T-+,1%ubj154Pp s I 2`p- pu@m.0@ :QQ4AA  g bw@tit:a <7  "7*; =;` b`-!@?jud*?-p ?PPG@@avbfw2$0p?B t ;;A @fe- A w80?>, @|nc:1NA.^jjRE: PPC Congested AreasejSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill Watson+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comWj00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillTHEFAADOESNTKNOW-ISUSPECTTHEPILOTMAYNOTKNOW,BUTIDONTKNOW,YOUKNOW?SHOULDANYLARGERSTREETORHIGHWAYORFRE<005c01c5e56a$bfda0e40$09000032@bill><4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C7@teamail.teamservices.com>sentto-313105-166259-1131567510-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511092019511116253039$2e33917Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comultraliteteacherpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626bill@part103.orggroups-email71.5.47.69Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339171116253039$2e339171:12:0:0 339171116253039 33917powerchutes@yahoogroups.com: Tdlt +bf+>BVZn&Hj4d=MYc Tz '|q*Return-Path: Received: from n27.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n27.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.56]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9KJCSi032647 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:19:23 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=m0bz/m9v0ppqT9Oi/Givxmq7ycr/csmGpWhg7KGqLs+bc6+iiT3XNXTEdrzmhf3ghg9EHKhjhQw0HJ+qfHbCaAZXtoarhhrVRZhaWKCMULJYr+mswUk4oR63StB1LpwB; Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n27.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 20:19:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.93] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 20:18:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bill@part103.org X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67743 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 20:18:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 20:18:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helmethouse.com) (71.5.47.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 20:18:29 -0000 Received: from bill (bill [50.0.0.9]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jA9KIJ08032536 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:18:27 -0800 To: Message-ID: <005c01c5e56a$bfda0e40$09000032@bill> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C7@teamail.teamservices.com> X-Originating-IP: 71.5.47.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bill Watson" X-Yahoo-Profile: ultraliteteacher Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:18:24 -0800 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 33917 Status: O X-UID: 33917 Content-Length: 4757 X-Keywords: 6/=)OThe FAA doesn't know - I suspect the pilot may not know, but I don't know, you know? Should any 'larger' street or highway or freeway or turnpike or whatever be considered a barrier that no UL has permission to cross at any time due to its being a congested area? Out here, we cross a freeway and/or a highway to go farther than 5 miles from the airport. We have been doing so for 20+ years. This has been done under close (1/2 mile) supervision of FAA tower personnel all that time with their blessings. The freeway crossing is done (by letter of agreement with the tower) at or below 225' AGL. Is it sensible for us to change our ways? Would it make sense to suggest that a major road crossing is not considered a congested area while flying over the length would be? Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:55 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ E~:~3pLZFu2ւ rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P The FAA don'@kno- I susVp@tpo3@y , bu@`p, m y`?!!Sbh`ld p' `rg'pt у@highwP %etpn@kwvbe! #? p c'` UL%a rmi *o)}#tq` P+1!it ' g((Q$0$( a"{O { `w+u%pd^/)%&+Ag*f )5O!R prp. W'' a-s2+ y.5*C6Enm'u1c (1/@3)q*v+of#+@0`*6n9 @ ),C!5@ p4-7%+s-818:@b4@;a 0> <$:)'20$`AGL."I -Pp ?7+33_$0$p'0s"{W#cF&F,qgo.B))j`a#@(X!-'14%ly-o'4-'0#c'"{B] W'`:0(jud$0?+@@c!G5-P@;')gp2$5P2 7gf=81%`. `?Q) PP!R#vݤ'(Q;P'Nv1')v$09r'aLp S-`7$1?A7"8" ddyEMV@H$cc;#c `*P30%;i,AE'#g&=4*1+!8"gKQ= ],atQ?q:!1:Sa`%@-`/cpb);;5bf'{(:@ob9b*'P:!2_o{Cw5`",JRռpkF|1dQ!/T_"+PrU'dٺ-9DLB܅kyry*@.9t5UR?*0C81 BPtpx://×r/E!L vyIteb7ruw`.ɠF4 X /4/5!Y! G#Q&/?O_oooo/?O_o_/?O_o /?O _ o/ o//?2_!() !"#$&'(/<*O+_,o/.L1274?5O6_7o8@:;F=>V@BCD/E?YZHoIJ <*>˰ʠy pdĤRb|gQ U%_cdfhSy`m0ӠkLRSϠhYiuqfkOlR]clӐp/rmf U$}}PtOu zThe FAA doesn't know - I suspect the pilot may not know, but I don't know, you know? Should any 'larger' street or highway or freeway or turnpike or whatever be considered a barrier that no UL has permission to cross at any time due to its being a congested area? Out here, we cross a freeway and/or a highway to go farther than 5 miles from the airport. We have been doing so for 20+ years. This has been done under close (1/2 mile) supervision of FAA tower personnel all that time with their blessings. The freeway crossing is done (by letter of agreement with the tower) at or below 225' AGL. Is it sensible for us to change our ways? Would it make sense to suggest that a major road crossing is not considered a congested area while flying over the length would be? Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:55 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ EW~3--- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Orpe" wrote: > > Good thing you don't live near any of them six liners, Bill. 8-) > > Gary O. > The dumb and aging one... > 661 746-4780 fax It surely would shorten most planes flying areas to say they can not fly over a 6 lane road. Or is congested dependent on the plane ? ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ kFT|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg[ ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com JeihI&d|@`|TTVY   T  $ 000  09( 9, @:U q:0_4_8_<_@_D_H_L_Pgg_ @`SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'SMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com AbciڈuB ߐ @|y .8 @ <{> _ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @M ( )@`d` ?5EF0@0@ 0?Nef _ `!#$%&' ()@*`+,-.0@12a} L ;llRE: PPC Congested AreasrlSMTP:GARYFISHER@BC.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTGaryFisher@bc.comSMTPGaryFisher@bc.comGaryFisher@bc.com+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPGaryFisher@bc.comPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comnl00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillWELL,IFITISCONSIDEREDACONGESTEDAREA,THENYOUWOULDNEVERBEALLOWEDTOCROSSITATANYALTITUDE(WHICHISRIDICULOsentto-313105-166260-1131568331-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511092033341116253039$2e33924Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.com09 Nov 2005 20:31:23.0045 (UTC) FILETIME=[8CBE7D50:01C5E56C]garydfisherpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comGaryFisher@BC.comgroups-email204.99.194.60Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339241116253039$2e339241:12:0:0 33924powerchutes@yahoogroups.com8 L\dl 1hl!2EI]au %-OqA /@LY Sy z ~r<Return-Path: Received: from n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.35]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9KWB6X001330 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:32:12 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=Hi3sW8gAaIstANYYPr1I2ak8xP7BvF2+fIIc5lv97FWHwu5SI2ptCGgkychX650SU5FUg/H4siTGNUvBuvlW682tSAX7DlHE/J4uEYZay6GjJ8uBwQ7xyWNMCHdp5Mt0; Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n1.bm.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 20:32:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.32] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 20:32:11 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: GaryFisher@BC.com X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51247 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 20:32:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 20:32:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bo00svwall2.boisecascade.com) (204.99.194.60) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 20:32:09 -0000 Received: from bo00sxpcn2.bc.com ([10.1.0.147]) by bo00svwall2.boisecascade.com with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:31:23 -0700 Received: from bosexmail1.bc.com ([10.1.1.137]) by bo00sxpcn2.bc.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:31:23 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: PPC Congested Areas thread-index: AcXlauOSJ60ZAE0ARAywOngcGRWgogAAPasg To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2005 20:31:23.0045 (UTC) FILETIME=[8CBE7D50:01C5E56C] X-Originating-IP: 204.99.194.60 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: X-Yahoo-Profile: garydfisher Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:31:21 -0700 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 33924 Content-Length: 5903 X-Keywords: \ *x()}Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. Gary Fisher -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:18 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas The FAA doesn't know - I suspect the pilot may not know, but I don't know, you know? Should any 'larger' street or highway or freeway or turnpike or whatever be considered a barrier that no UL has permission to cross at any time due to its being a congested area? Out here, we cross a freeway and/or a highway to go farther than 5 miles from the airport. We have been doing so for 20+ years. This has been done under close (1/2 mile) supervision of FAA tower personnel all that time with their blessings. The freeway crossing is done (by letter of agreement with the tower) at or below 225' AGL. Is it sensible for us to change our ways? Would it make sense to suggest that a major road crossing is not considered a congested area while flying over the length would be? Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:55 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 0!@; 8LZFuhH rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P Well, @@=  agq a0$th y` wE`lpnevb^e @wat^o`a@ANYltu (wh hd ``s). |Bu` !% Hfly g ! o `&A cs y j$@"@ )y!$ b(( &2p#P&z !`" #-!igh@)a!$$Vrb+Unpca$#c!0}%T*A 0 @ss"Peq P0& 0!% gu!l $P `4"-P=p-P &2supp"P!ad5'o!$( `.@*# d '@ P 3a63" `/A4P.A$06$3.9)bc'500'73n( #5.!$!$G(F5?-AOg @(rA!$Fa:)!r%@@ya-o `ps.m [[":DOEX]!$O]B?@@`O`B2W"2` !3`0kD d4qd+@0Ng'!09005 1:18 PzM!$TF`D?EIJ%uLbjJREMPPC!ps?s1@AA9q9k"n&- I6spP46'+ASSt0b%AT9!$U S??S8 q>' `rr>/1 5#.@w+A2[#p6k##" !$!b c5SqS UL, TPr. i !">#P. P! !,DXO%A70!a[g01/,Z)22q 5>$.5!$R4 pr6 %,  9&2b+p1_k<=#u0@=#1/@i)6v`o`R"M`"I 2" 5R!$a1j 5m&Q["3&n(/5@q`!% 0sqop5r &20>AGL?I"stl$!('p 0+@sXW S'ra\|rb6g5Dj`7pvU*v-i&f'#45_t! D!XIb2@A t103.gA/B?COMEoFGHhJohK"P!skiAJKLL`MO?POQ_~a%qR?@UoBCDHGe_I/J?KOL_MoNi?PX?RS^_VXYZ/[?\O]_^os/`abfdσgOh_m_jklmnv_pq|tuw?xOy_zo{ߐ~ߞ/?O_oߓ/?_oh<*>`0py`̳ Pb g/ PQ$̳ Q ̦́?OyYBu@|Q1Rϻcj`/Prm}p? 4;5%Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. Gary Fisher -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:18 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas The FAA doesn't know - I suspect the pilot may not know, but I don't know, you know? Should any 'larger' street or highway or freeway or turnpike or whatever be considered a barrier that no UL has permission to cross at any time due to its being a congested area? Out here, we cross a freeway and/or a highway to go farther than 5 miles from the airport. We have been doing so for 20+ years. This has been done under close (1/2 mile) supervision of FAA tower personnel all that time with their blessings. The freeway crossing is done (by letter of agreement with the tower) at or below 225' AGL. Is it sensible for us to change our ways? Would it make sense to suggest that a major road crossing is not considered a congested area while flying over the length would be? Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:55 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas When does this show take place? -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: PPC Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ :8!@Is it "congested" if no cars/people/dawgs/hawgs are on the 6 lanes/ Or if only two lanes? Sometime the faa(ny guys) will have to define "congested" once an for all. A dirt track with no people, or maybe two-three people ? A stadium with no people/ Sounds like The Lawyers' Retirement Act. regards, Bob N. ronoy@shentel.net http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 20|[Return-Path: Received: from n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.36]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9MpPPH014556 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:51:26 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? 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X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: X-Originating-IP: 206.46.252.40 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Phil Dietro" X-Yahoo-Profile: igotafly Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:49:58 -0800 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 33984 Status: O X-UID: 33984 Content-Length: 1517 X-Keywords:  &d!|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggW ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com JeiXhhl|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggk ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkאEt  ? _  @݆ !ZReturn-Path: Received: from n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.44]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9L4Rc9004427 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:04:27 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=YSoBE6MISrSbeFKN/2PeYgosFTnRpYnVV7kJTphZUWLRALM1h9eHgEcxBRls9lnHn0kr1WLsAK5BveiSJ5Jzn07czjyRxxGIoiAKhOf674vbftTh1BH2rC5zdJRap8Xp; Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:04:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.94] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:04:26 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: garyo@bak.rr.com X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83358 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 21:04:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 21:04:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.socal.rr.com) (66.75.162.133) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 21:04:13 -0000 Received: from garys (cpe-24-161-194-212.bak.res.rr.com [24.161.194.212]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.socal.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id jA9L3l7v011935 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:03:56 -0800 (PST) To: Message-ID: <001b01c5e560$55fcd020$6401a8c0@garys> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-reply-to: <004601c5e561$eeb9f580$09000032@bill> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Originating-IP: 66.75.162.133 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Gary Orpe" X-Yahoo-Profile: garyo263 Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:03:51 -0800 Subject: UL: RE: Congested Areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 33936 Content-Length: 1804 X-Keywords: l?Good thing you don't live near any of them six liners, Bill. 8-) Gary O. The dumb and aging one... 661 746-4780 fax ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> -----Original Message----- From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:15 AM To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Subject: UL: Congested Areas I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson bill@part103.org Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ R>|̊ LZFu  rcpg1252CtexAO ch set0 PVUQ23F ;05 `cP d36P \ I0t g, didn'@ eph P @61 -Qp9 pd 103.@q t"f fly#!7P#P way&p E  "4to D@ `  ymu&p500'&%veh} l %$Q!5,S"4!no@lpi!+""4"4B W$ "Cb/1Z@ t"g.j\'a7!q.119Z 2M pu&saf@tus: G @.UExce1w%(`5P &qkeo (@ `!y, p/(&ao8A$ 3/ pr3`@beP%:G#3.j(a)`ny5"=p3%a;T@$Qa80:!ue@f pls@e1 cy"475]-Ph`@@ d P }z #8&(1p`8At8*0r@p5P"<{b=PO* -q e' "GCp&pG(@?c-Py@'wn@"4!t*`0K(@H8>!:!A`8$`D@>GJ!, )@@"C3p0!*%*0g%(ob(*QBso?Bz!@ 4(J2P$pP7'U%9F-cG%,=#G>J!)1TQKUE@5SLM3&P7Bs  N!?pu `G#o X' ,5U8,:8!*P`AX5Z'H8D@*Ml,5*LSrp3=<{d=PH: 8Hqh8b$!*a XS%-@2"CD:- a ap`GWbJ!R  g`i*$Q%8pClXC g`-qBCoDE_Tp2,5HPQ8Ep;s h/Am P&pBH`B*rH3KU8@Jpf '^mh6x b&p%Adlr?g!$ F,1"152Oq(1G_Ha"4sp 'W$-:(!&P\$(SR(ApZV'PU&d܇g .j" d<8ӕo.2:3 π^>(?S@A#XH-J5#`l,ebFE`@A$!ANY>8(5 a c_`s)"BB$Q$:@A`XS5j(U (-Pc&pF2ҪHPxFsG` 5큇3ȂF4rc~Ѫ!`(Jp0"Tr/A@ &q P0N!" gu- %g@*b$Wp,0p? soT3'F(`uQTP P -PRN!'@3(!%'ȏɟfܠFIۏ`@a40B_U ِm{4-@ ODL?(@J0Uky6`!@.(`"%Ͱ~R'on0Ptp://5㸒/.aL0 F ebEw0.`*b(oO_/|*a/ 5 4Y!4@C nk   /??Oo*?-?/?=/!_"o#$%&A(0o*+6.//F1O2_3o45IJ89:<*ܠ`F0Q͠U3ub`gH@EPT/U?VYD I^3b[COD_ YYZR"Woٔw[\Pc]zА/-~mVE}m 0+S?Return-Path: Received: from n23.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n23.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.52]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9L7cQQ004785 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:07:39 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? 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See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n6.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:07:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:07:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:07:22 -0000 To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001b01c5e560$55fcd020$6401a8c0@garys> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.59 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.217.82.92 From: "Mark Smith" X-Yahoo-Profile: mark47620 Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 21:07:21 -0000 Subject: UL: Re: Congested Areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 33941 Status: O X-UID: 33939 Content-Length: 960 X-Keywords: 2ɳ\ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @@ ( )@iF` ?5BEF0@0@ 0?oef @_ `!"#$%' ()@*`+,-./ 6_(sK%b~Pp=rp=rUL: Re: Congested AreasJqSMTP:MARK@TRIKITE.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTMark SmithSMTPmark@trikite.comMark Smith+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPmark@trikite.comRe: Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com߶q00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill---INFLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPSCOM,"GARYORPE"<001b01c5e560$55fcd020$6401a8c0@garys>sentto-371046-67923-1131570456-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511092112091116253039$2e33939Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.commark47620FLY-UL@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Message Postermark@trikite.comgroups-email216.155.201.59SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339391116253039$2e339391:12:0:069.217.82.92 339391116253039 33941FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com: L\dl!X\#';?S6Lnr%oTYiF Cl--- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Orpe" wrote: > > Good thing you don't live near any of them six liners, Bill. 8-) > > Gary O. > The dumb and aging one... > 661 746-4780 fax It surely would shorten most planes flying areas to say they can not fly over a 6 lane road. Or is congested dependent on the plane ? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ FT `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @@+ ( )@k` 5BEF0@0@ 0?Nef @߆ `!"#$%& '@()`*+,-./ kkZXhHB4}&T{t{tUL: RE: Re: Congested AreassSMTP:DAVID-LIST@BOTTOMLEY.US+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTDavid BottomleySMTPdavid-list@bottomley.usDavid Bottomley+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPdavid-list@bottomley.usRE: Re: Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com5s00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillIASSUMETHEPPGINQUESTIONIS103LEGALIFSO,THEFOLLOWINGAPPLIES:IWOULDCERTAINLYPOINTOUTTHESAFETYIMPLICATIO<200511092123.jA9LNGCU006424@helmethouse.com>sentto-371046-67924-1131571395-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511092128441116253039$2e33945Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comkb9okbFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353david-list@bottomley.usgroups-email208.33.88.203Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER,MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=no version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339451116253039$2e339451:12:0:0 339451116253039 33949FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com: L\dl.=tx3JNbfz;]2z%2_Jpx AcReturn-Path: Received: from n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.37]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9LNGCU006424 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:23:16 -0800 Message-Id: <200511092123.jA9LNGCU006424@helmethouse.com> Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=PuHNKgiXvHy8pbZXwBdNgmpPkiL0ctiXAXqCv22YfRhyXEkrBLsSxhavAnPUT0tzPn96NkmP0l5YAenJrkt7kbqbv485fOLy6D/0cjdDhQdBWDUIZn39vCnPAWbeHIQX; Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:23:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.28] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:23:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: david-list@bottomley.us X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54501 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 21:23:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 21:23:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.speedex.net) (208.33.88.203) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 21:23:10 -0000 Received: from david ([208.33.89.5]) by mail.speedex.net (Merak 8.0.3) with ESMTP id RJA80792 for ; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 15:22:04 -0600 To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcXlcZ+AtoUygbF9T8uEgb2pqkfkEQAARn2Q X-Originating-IP: 208.33.88.203 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "David Bottomley" X-Yahoo-Profile: kb9okb Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:22:08 -0600 Subject: UL: RE: Re: Congested Areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER,MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=no version=3.0.4 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 33949 Status: O X-UID: 33945 Content-Length: 2291 X-Keywords: oLI assume the PPG in question is 103 legal... if so, the following applies: I would certainly point out the safety implications of having a six lane highway beneath him as a potential landing site in the event of an emergency, particularly if he's flying in an otherwise inhospitable area. Prudence, if not FAR 103, provides that you always maintain a suitable landing area within gliding distance. Also, the congested area clause of Part 103 is as follows: " Sec. 103.15 Operations over congested areas. No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons." Exactly how do they get a highway out of that? A 6 lane highway in a rural area is not a part of a city, town, or settlement. Are they trying to say it's an "open air assembly of persons?" Unless they're all convertibles, they're way off base. David A. Bottomley Hawk Arrow II N177ES Quicksilver Sprint > -----Original Message----- > From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > Mark Smith > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:07 PM > To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com > Subject: UL: Re: Congested Areas > > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Orpe" wrote: > > > > Good thing you don't live near any of them six liners, Bill. 8-) > > > > Gary O. > > The dumb and aging one... > > 661 746-4780 fax > > It surely would shorten most planes flying areas to say they can not > fly over a 6 lane road. > > Or is congested dependent on the plane ? > > > > > > > > > > > Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ B Vl LZFus rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I au th!`PPG qq Psti  1@03 leg@.f so,sMlngp Ps: w`ld c ly po @`@saf #Pp!1car ov ix pe!highwa#Pb e% h%p&!#p01&d ev(%p!erg cy  pc" #A' f#@ o(r*hosp)0 a.!Pru,e n( FAR,A`% % y`l'q # q&"u/!)f/"`)'0g!@)?)`p"05!Al Q 5c `u.%P,q(q t!|" Qc.15!@'P@*'0::Q>p#P9+@6c),1t n t00FsCA.1iC+_`AA?"!ExF#P/@d@#P+@&0'6#%2?p/s,!WLo '7D%"AmB(Qm0THawk`I@N177ES!Q4ckl>S2@#!> -aOg )1MWa+a`Fa:1LY-UL@ya/@o `p?(P[3Bplo:cd]=BC @Of`M ]Sm6A``0cpW &sd' @g*09 0=3:07M`Te`cdhubjimlRelP96S1``ld "G #Pa`=<<PSo@b`w`!`>u Gd0"6R 3"Kn'@!@*1`'GMR+&D A Bp 8-)u` -----Original Message----- > From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > Mark Smith > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:07 PM > To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com > Subject: UL: Re: Congested Areas > > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Orpe" wrote: > > > > Good thing you don't live near any of them six liners, Bill. 8-) > > > > Gary O. > > The dumb and aging one... > > 661 746-4780 fax > > It surely would shorten most planes flying areas to say they can not > fly over a 6 lane road. > > Or is congested dependent on the plane ? > > > > > > > > > > > Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ B .Vl|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggo ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei2l|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 ggs ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUk>}l|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUk=8q?l|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUk;Nb.\ d a4b 1Fz `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @  ( )@,t(` ?59BEF0@0@ 0?Ne f@`_ !"#$% '@()`*+,-. ukdwMNm$ttRe: UL: Re: Congested Areas^sSMTP:RONOY@SHENTEL.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBob N.SMTPronoy@shentel.netBob N.+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPronoy@shentel.netUL: Re: Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comt00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillISIT"CONGESTED"IFNOCARS/PEOPLE/DAWGS/HAWGSAREONTHE6LANES/ORIFONLYTWOLANES?SOMETIMETHEFAA(NYGUYS)WILL<8028E199-2B39-4334-9C5E-81E15107AD94@shentel.net>sentto-371046-67925-1131571494-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511092128441116253039$2e33946Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comronoy2000FLY-UL@yahoogroups.comApple Mail (2.728)ronoy@shentel.netgroups-email204.111.11.44SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339461116253039$2e339461:12:0:0 33946FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com9 DT\dNR"6:N1$l <_dz:<Return-Path: Received: from n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.54]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9LOte8006538 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:24:56 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=irceCIHuXaUNK6EvApl33NFvAoamY3FxM9C/4wlFtQ5VW5I0DQ7++dbuYDrbyufhi+vEYiwmrBUNL4fWJ+AmR9oBI8GtoF612J1scqg0ECD84uR+zZzXh0MdWqT9iU5X; Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:24:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.200] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 21:24:54 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: ronoy@shentel.net X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65448 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 21:24:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 21:24:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO seahorse.shentel.net) (204.111.11.44) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 21:24:52 -0000 Received: from [204.111.85.117] (ha84s373.d.shentel.net [204.111.85.117]) by seahorse.shentel.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA9LOouI029980 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:24:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <8028E199-2B39-4334-9C5E-81E15107AD94@shentel.net> To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) X-Originating-IP: 204.111.11.44 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bob N." X-Yahoo-Profile: ronoy2000 Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:23:29 -0500 Subject: Re: UL: Re: Congested Areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 33946 Content-Length: 986 X-Keywords: kC(@pLZFu- rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I i@"ng d"f no c/peo Pe/dawg%Q e  tRh 6 `n/v O ly PwP ?p q Sfaa(n"0guys) l v#qP !5Z c @l.%`i Prk$ `2, yb%"Q- ` )e "( ra(@um(!#uDnd lik T qL@ys'!&>R#1 0ct.!D g s,!D8Bob0 oyl@s p0e' t!Dh@p://wm4.pl% .m/r52!D6O6-8/8 Ya@hoo! G`upAp s8;A~;@>!5G #c'0%Aya#>v 9(Ma.Q9>39#a 3˚u?c.0(.y95cdpRU5A4UILACyQLSDQTB/TM7FGH;3M &web)gP%@:!D! ! 4%MCM/FLY-8UL/OP-sub*QR QQ)-'R0 p RULWXM.VY>BBp  9XqWaj(qSq4pdocT /rm`e!D}cDU4 Is it "congested" if no cars/people/dawgs/hawgs are on the 6 lanes/ Or if only two lanes? Sometime the faa(ny guys) will have to define "congested" once an for all. A dirt track with no people, or maybe two-three people ? A stadium with no people/ Sounds like The Lawyers' Retirement Act. regards, Bob N. ronoy@shentel.net http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ;Q8|[|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei^|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei\ % 1 9 = ߔA @P6  ߗ 4P & ߑ 4UW Ӽ1 LZFuv1c rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP d36P )<> Fa: "B Wats " I y be l"pto pu@m"@.0@ "th"pFAA  g  g w@tit# ma%gd" a. T$!%a&#&!$C$ $/`p% %h(jud&'"p (SHPPG(av$fewov(6 `n' t'$p+$R*3 )lrfel@$(awa&/'5,' c"%B0B$ l"@$PR$"@'Av p `"'%,Pct'(+'w2c&-r'1m S'(a-1?(R0b*@dy.!,'-{(Rno@@0@y occu+'1)c1pp 50%,f$%%(Q:%@"/nk3' '$=@$# @?(4`g P)$u"%0 3s"1@2c(-@(c"&":%'g @%rc @ ,a2T2""a2c$a=n!(<5,y$@-PV92>! c1@1"`$!KE"pP%?@0mlf,@V\jB7Q(dp&6"1`b""@d"ax=0'!^$!x9"X" p]v-1(r`@W1)5i,PW*!]ms V /t1J)fJRrKeDE^LZ5"`^"P <'a%r&>!k9Q"p7@/Ph! M1PM!"@A_ebP'qP"CLp!@%bleeppp/"&LsT2$ Qa'"-rԀ(qu BX-)^"\SV p%AP3ÿe@$7$w.FED"a"`@jAB3'@%*%@Mno@ -? YanQ! G`=@AQ~PpGqs= Z"pqv%"p'M]2ŪCY#(!C^@p://J.sJ.yҮp/dpRU5A/wUIL$`/yQLSaTB/TM߲'1p9P0AkX-E -,@ 7LAO<*p e@1Co$ub1g#o:/FLY-UL/"uV0"aK(a1 'Ao h>.~YRJp(aV!j/= ^/^}{Xu?_@Ej  , ?> _P b @-on z;. mo S= l JN `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    `@$ ( )@j;U` 579EF0@0@ 0?oe f@`߇ !"#$% &@'`()*+,-. /@U}Hc N > >Re: PPC Congested AreasSMTP:IGOTAFLY.ME@VERIZON.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTPhil DietroSMTPigotafly.me@verizon.netPhil Dietro+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPigotafly.me@verizon.netPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comK00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillGARY,WHEREINTHEFARSDOESITSAYNOTTOGETCLOSERTHAN500TOANYVEHICLE?BYVEHICLE,AREYOUREFERRINGTOCARS,ORULVE<004101c5e57f$e945cc00$cf0ab618@j3z8y8>Inland Paraflite, Inc.sentto-313105-166264-1131576683-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511092255251116253039$2e33984Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comigotaflypowerchutes@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437igotafly.me@verizon.netgroups-email206.46.252.40Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339841116253039$2e339841:12:0:0 339841116253039 33984powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; \lt|6Ax|-1H[_sw ;Ce(d (CkD " 2 M ;bxuGary, Where in the FAR's does it say not to get closer than 500' to any vehicle? By vehicle, are you referring to cars, or UL vehicles? Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:31 PM Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be > allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you > are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they > could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get > distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use > as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to > (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the > don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. > > Gary Fisher Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /tl$W(LZFui4UO rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P G y, Wh$e t FHAR' doi@say no@to g c0500'Gppveh le?DB!,!pjy`  fn:gc#@UL!s"5P!S&-' Og @oP 'DFa: <F@bc.m>DTo*1powus@yahoo `ps+9`0*0W nd`#@No!09#@05  :31 PM-ubj.RE*0PPC!$Pdeas& >.ll#@ 0 2a52#aa#@1#w`l2.!/4&@,P2$`E!a@ANY9AtE u (w!h;5Rd 8`s). B,4#8fly$B9q%8r!o` .c( ~j< @ 7Cy4&8R##b30; $Q6@z `2 ;E1(@h@ 4&p H8 gu5l 2r8L:A =#bs-p,09ad4&(8a`FPBn'@ P  KAaO KA8GqLFQ<#@O;L!1FR !e.4&4&`*3o&0V`?q(*0\,?-HDU1p/\\-u_([][LE%w.r_ky@..F%0R%P05a \F`tp://-E,+2g/] "E{!L cd/Te^b0\w\fwm.] ^x*Mbl)fgi]E/foB/[uDY-!-Scnk3[<*4+!!#_-C%] b#@ge+[umqr/sv `Jpe-CTQ 6!/ p x`?aO^ivYwBHo5t|5a_11xyczj /rms}prpѥGary, Where in the FAR's does it say not to get closer than 500' to any vehicle? By vehicle, are you referring to cars, or UL vehicles? Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:31 PM Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be > allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you > are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they > could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get > distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use > as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to > (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the > don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. > > Gary Fisher Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 7t$W(Return-Path: Received: from n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.44]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9N7iHN016743 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:07:45 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=qdmrZM2cQvdZ7Wvpwp2fhiPvFvr0GHWsgMPEBrz4O96+DMofbfXInJDvlNd5E0Z8cCJ6mQP9TfiReffAwzmUk+KFP1Ir29e5dhAg8pqsJc4E3ISnYgX7DEpjfT10jAB7; Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 23:07:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.199] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 23:07:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: GaryFisher@BC.com X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93843 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 23:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 23:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bo00svwall2.boisecascade.com) (204.99.194.60) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 23:07:42 -0000 Received: from bo00sxpcn2.bc.com ([10.1.0.147]) by bo00svwall2.boisecascade.com with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:07:41 -0700 Received: from bosexmail1.bc.com ([10.1.1.137]) by bo00sxpcn2.bc.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:07:41 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: PPC Congested Areas thread-index: AcXlgB4Ts5WR9ywERqCcLE/1tYWo3wAAgVWQ To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2005 23:07:41.0240 (UTC) FILETIME=[62957B80:01C5E582] X-Originating-IP: 204.99.194.60 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: X-Yahoo-Profile: garydfisher Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:07:40 -0700 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 33989 Content-Length: 2407 X-Keywords: a # xReturn-Path: Received: from n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.20]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA1aNx2029699 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:36:24 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=JDOXksXcH7aNz8VmumJvuxOeE75kyIfVZQJZREsZC9if0MTxXrGcSrQct8PRBpWRRqgAlMxOKSgW8+To0k6yAlXtb9B4wtjJKtcGgImZlBhOVZfp1Doz11dMBZvVaA+v; Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:36:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.94] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:36:22 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: SportTriker@hotpop.com X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12199 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 01:36:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 01:36:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out.hotpop.com) (38.113.3.61) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 01:36:20 -0000 Received: from hotpop.com (kubrick.hotpop.com [38.113.3.105]) by smtp-out.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7737D1CA64D9 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:35:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from swc-g9qhnisxxpx.hotpop.com (c-24-2-52-35.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.2.52.35]) by smtp-2.hotpop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24201C8CBF1 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:27:54 +0000 (UTC) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.1.20051109145551.06851850@pop.hotpop.com> X-Sender: SportTriker@pop.hotpop.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- X-Originating-IP: 38.113.3.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Mike Huckle X-Yahoo-Profile: mikehuckle Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:55:53 -0800 Subject: UL: Congested Areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34038 Content-Length: 2505 X-Keywords: > LZFuA rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P Ijf  c@ my1ad g othe doc>u0 Atly, i@wa na@`t 4:3P ao !C@a a Qc  qui qS!x- `nhigh Py. T$' p`b `&p s pd b ( @(%epp  e  (`*tqP#sub$!&$d! !em'Q t0d&Al*`   k)V a0@p -* u0 nba`$d 4A#m ")B2,"(- p(1 & 100&ju0@ @$I!D *` 8)$6c>r ( 4# ev]$Re) l)t{=@/v $C;d0 $d` C/)#*`n@ 5 i .!!--u&G3r0 FGPI9po)6s@8yah" `ps .m "Joh Ko*`wski Jr" @`:!>M% W26 # &(C+,^?MMHG@Og @(`0 QMFa:IJ [A`:ToJ(]O MBelOB N@ M`[0T@W & s8Nfo?409 05::27 PM}MTVT_JZW-0j^RE^PPC!DDPMA *`,[\8)3~l(0 -?&0b-YPQST^!2V/jX@Y`XJZ_[o\x]\A]om/_`abM11cIk*$"P}~ ]@KP.AhttuU-14{t-4TLo@& rkyry@.& ! URL=@{3 Rh@p://oJ%IJ/!B!L !#q^b]@Gwp.vXFhgEۋ/E!/E!YI!GpJ31`y!<*t A@~yaeJ2,)b glEؔeۄ R{$J#= P/PlvIY;,L{Rw$ў: Z/"Qm]!}B7G?H߀LRrg$ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @- ( )@1$Wu` ?5EFf@0@0@ 0?Nef @_ !#$%& '@()`*+,-.0`12RH Ej_H]g8RE: PPC Congested AreasFaSMTP:GARYFISHER@BC.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTGaryFisher@bc.comSMTPGaryFisher@bc.comGaryFisher@bc.com+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPGaryFisher@bc.comPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com6d00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillINPART61,ITDESCRIBESMINIMUMALTITUDESFORCONGESTED,NON-CONGESTEDANDSPARSELYPOPULATEDAREASONLYINSPARSELsentto-313105-166265-1131577663-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.comP&b200511092311271116253039$2e33989Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.com09 Nov 2005 23:07:41.0240 (UTC) FILETIME=[62957B80:01C5E582]garydfisherpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comGaryFisher@BC.comgroups-email204.99.194.60Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339891116253039$2e339891:12:0:0 33989powerchutes@yahoogroups.com9 dt|8I59J]auy"=Eg)Y)4O`ly+s $ 7ZZIn part 61, it describes minimum altitudes for congested, non-congested and sparsely populated areas. Only in sparsely populated areas are you allowed to fly as low as you want, except that you must maintain a distance of 500' from any person, vehicle or structure. Gary Fisher -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Dietro Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:50 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Gary, Where in the FAR's does it say not to get closer than 500' to any vehicle? By vehicle, are you referring to cars, or UL vehicles? Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:31 PM Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be > allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you > are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they > could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get > distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use > as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to > (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the > don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. > > Gary Fisher Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 묨9^ LZFuҧ rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I @61, i@bm pum @tu ngdn - 1pd s lyopu ` A as. On"a g!##" y`!elw#to$%&'b% wptce1t@( 0p q#a!ddn( of 500'a6n$s veh l+q 0r@ .!d!dG $ZFh.z-0O=g @sa 0!dFa:"& rus@yahoo `p#p[*o:34(]!d# B-0@+O+P-@ D-^o!d`02W ndayNo- 30905X 3:+80M!dT50348ubj9Re;<E?_@n!d>SQ&+###B(`l!S- @X&DCs)AANY (w-AhZM+c"`s)#BQPY%]%'1I'T!`%E#S(1/Qj)DE )[FY0\C(%#P IZz &`' 0 `Pi1 h@DqX+r"bh!Ip)%cZ0#Tf(@ @,,eq P0$mq] guZl B-J)D/pD%s4P"s&adB#'X(?]B`kfC1n'@ P 'Bs$'"l!qPkaps`%BkwvDE-.eY0X/9XK80{)1T-u؂o4L++wSruYky/P@.SkeIRJ') Z 2ktp://4%34/G!=L fAeb80'bewP.>/rH/o/f/%!dY3!}43nkXρ߂/?O__o_ϒߓ_/?@<*Y0ҺC@cZ /rm}}`ﶬHIn part 61, it describes minimum altitudes for congested, non-congested and sparsely populated areas. Only in sparsely populated areas are you allowed to fly as low as you want, except that you must maintain a distance of 500' from any person, vehicle or structure. Gary Fisher -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Dietro Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:50 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Gary, Where in the FAR's does it say not to get closer than 500' to any vehicle? By vehicle, are you referring to cars, or UL vehicles? Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:31 PM Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be > allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you > are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they > could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get > distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use > as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to > (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the > don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. > > Gary Fisher Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 9^ `IPM.Note @# &) + .679@; A@B`depq    @ `  @  ()\g   B@0@0@ 0?o Y@ef `   t=D[c>{c>{RE: PPC Congested Areas?8SMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested Areas8gmA)UYV+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORGSMTPbill@part103.orgP!_3)Hԙ YP€00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.org00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.orgINTERESTING,IDIDNTSEESUCHINPART61-ISEESOMEINPART91ANDPART103ITISINTERESTINGTHATIFFLYINGPART91ALONGTH10.0part103.org00000006bill@part103.org'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'  5=S04DLdNR]vEInteresting, I didn't see such in Part 61 - I see some in Part 91 and Part 103. It is interesting that if flying Part 91 along the freeway from El Paso to Dallas one must stay 500' from the vehicles on the freeway if Part 91, and not limited if Part 103. Bill Watson bill@part103.org 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. (b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft. (c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. (d) Helicopters. Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the Administrator. 103.15 Operations over congested areas. top No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons. -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GaryFisher@bc.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:08 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas In part 61, it describes minimum altitudes for congested, non-congested and sparsely populated areas. Only in sparsely populated areas are you allowed to fly as low as you want, except that you must maintain a distance of 500' from any person, vehicle or structure. Gary Fisher -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Dietro Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:50 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Gary, Where in the FAR's does it say not to get closer than 500' to any vehicle? By vehicle, are you referring to cars, or UL vehicles? Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:31 PM Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be > allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you > are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they > could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get > distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use > as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to > (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the > don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. > > Gary Fisher Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ {R LZFu15 rcpg1252CtexAO ch set0 PVUQ23F ;05 `cP d36P \ I0t g, didn'@ eph P @61 -Qp9 pd103.@gq t"f fly#r!7P#P way%p| E  #&D@ `  mu& 500'&4%veh l %{$!5@!no@lpi!*"B B W# -b.A@ t"Bg-z\'a7!q.119 1M pu&psaf@ tus: G @-eExce1w%'4` &!keo ' `!+ p.'&o7Q#2 pr2p@beP%9a#r2-z(a)`ny4"p<02%:@$a7@[9p!u@f plrs+ e0 c& 64,`h`@>d P z '7T'p`7Qt7*0r?04`"p;;b<O)p , e&"pEp& F '5>Bc,`y@'wn@!t)0IoG&88!?`7$Bu?=H+(P20!)p%s)g%(ob(A)@o>`A z!@ 3(H2N8H%8DcE,pu `Fi#o V&I!SY7+9@7!)]qUX''Gb7T@)pKlbR)Itrp2<;;d<H9P 8Fei7_z#) U%,P2 C 9@, a ap`ErTS" ci*$%8l V!Ac,@ABC]!QlrY`7Um5:Roew.Qm P& @GS`A@)GA2[q 'Q[i5tX b& %Adic#D0"B151~OmF'EF-t'p;%N7?8E\@{,0O@)uJGHIJKW{o--Og{ QM52@-tFa3@>v@yamA o `pFua n[':]EB)@$O$G5aF@3if1w5V'7n-V)![FnLAFF y`=,'$1, 9q'b&Y#b'QqP(A@0W(ac-z ;+ώߏ-t P) Dco(oߘeO^u,-tW1'`>?mFr~}^3`l+e~B_q?ն]pC#ANY<(4 a Mc\@`s)"pBAA$bw1$59b?`1U5j( (,`^& ն٢c1Fso7`{1z 4Bն3nSz!c!](8dc 0"pT.Q@&%q P0LAw gua,0q%sc)#Utp,0p> osQз'ն(]3uO P ,`bLA'(`@3'%O_&ն {]p^ѯt3@ϻ~U i->7Lz'0ky5pU!@.'tuU~R@'k tp://R / -L0/ebw. )o5 E/w)/utY!3PnkW/?O_o #/?O&o<* P"`?1cp0bg%!!,H0_1o25K 9k:cA@ Yв8  5HY6ꒄѿ3l89c9`/yi`2}I ksTߞ`h(f,0 4@18@ T(`] f*@hglxc ptT@ +@ ]  7 +@@DB@@V 8$@ *4,@ 0@4z T`$f(h4v l@8V 8V 8V D@fJg$) BQH  € D 6 € | v € € €$ 0 " €D l ^ €d € € € XJ€ € €$ €D H:€d v€ € € 8*€ tf€ €$ €D 4&€d lf€ € € € l^€ €$ €D PJ€$ @@B &-B   (@G .@04QD8U<@>Xd@ j@l@ppvt@{x@f la ,@@ @@  m@n( @@$& *@(@eg7D @f$) For\ ,@[ol vo@>N QX%-(@ L Q@@G @2 8:T Zn@\`@d d hX @<' @@TPbe @lPJJ @Y @JJ 4 4 4 g$) WTT <.€$ xj€D €d € 8*€ tf€ € € 4*€$ lf€D €d € € hZ€ € € €$ hZ€D €d X R € €  € t n € €  €$ T F €D €d €  € D 6 € | v €47=Z " e$ Z 4 ^e@ rF H @8 R @@X N t    @ @ u    @ @Du   e R? *   g ? p@ !  , P 8 L > q@ = P \ @ b >d @v n @e@t x @ x @ x @ x @ %) W     %  e E   f  ]4 l  I  R  @ @` ]   h ] @ 4 @ d F @H @q zL @ IP zT  z p | @ d  #@ X  T    @    #@ @ ! 3     &) ^o "  €̀΀π $ €D €d PB€ v€ € € ,€ pb€$ €D €d € <.€ r€ € € <.€$ xj€D €$''Interesting, I didn't see such in Part 61 - I see some in Part 91 and Part 103. It is interesting that if flying Part 91 along the freeway from El Paso to Dallas one must stay 500' from the vehicles on the freeway if Part 91, and not limited if Part 103. Bill Watson bill@part103.org 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. (b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft. (c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. (d) Helicopters. Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the Administrator. 103.15 Operations over congested areas. top No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons. -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GaryFisher@bc.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:08 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas In part 61, it describes minimum altitudes for congested, non-congested and sparsely populated areas. Only in sparsely populated areas are you allowed to fly as low as you want, except that you must maintain a distance of 500' from any person, vehicle or structure. Gary Fisher -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Dietro Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:50 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Gary, Where in the FAR's does it say not to get closer than 500' to any vehicle? By vehicle, are you referring to cars, or UL vehicles? Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:31 PM Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be > allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you > are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they > could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get > distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use > as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to > (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the > don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. > > Gary Fisher Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /,ĝ9 `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @E ( )@kS` ߌ59EF0@0@ 0?Nef @ `!"#$%'@()`*+,-.9 ”fLp_8pq~pq~UL: Re: RE: Re: Congested areas,SMTP:ULTRAMAN@COMMUNITYWEB.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTjeff keySMTPultraman@communityweb.netjeff key+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPultraman@communityweb.netRe: RE: Re: Congested areasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillTHEORGSARENTGOINGTOPAYFORNOTHING,THEYDONTEVENGIVESUPPORTTOTHEREMEMBERSORBFIS,ALLTHEYWANTISYOURMONEY,<040101c5e5a4$2e450680$360ea2d8@susankey><00e901c5e59e$9a1d1d80$09000032@bill>sentto-371046-67930-1131591991-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511100333261116253039$2e34068Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comhawkman5032000FLY-UL@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409ultraman@communityweb.netgroups-email216.162.1.102Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340681116253039$2e340681:12:0:0 34068FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com9 L\dl/7nr/JNbfz;]:*6Cp4ZbX lhC   ? _ @ 4id|@`|TTVY   T  $ 000  09( 9, @:U q:0_4_8_<_@_D_H_L_Pggw @`SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'SMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com AbcP T{6|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg{ ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com JeiLۺ4 @ H L ߒP @F m ?_;4NJZ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    `@B ( )@߈` 5BEF0@0@ 0?oef @ `!"#$% &@'`()*+,-. /@7ŬW@-A'C yicicRE: PPC Congested Areas 8SMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill Watson+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com;00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillINTERESTING,IDIDNTSEESUCHINPART61-ISEESOMEINPART91ANDPART103ITISINTERESTINGTHATIFFLYINGPART91ALONGTH<00b101c5e584$38c22ae0$09000032@bill>sentto-313105-166266-1131578449-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511092322031116253039$2e33991Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comultraliteteacherpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626bill@part103.orggroups-emailfrom quoted-printable to 8bit by helmethouse.com id jA9NKrHI01811071.5.47.69Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e339911116253039$2e339911:12:0:0 339911116253039 33991powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; \lt|(3jn#3FJ^bv &.Pr7g@P\Q* / ? Z |831_p `IPM.Note @# &) + .679@; A@B`depq    @ `  @  ()L   ?B@0@0@ 0?N Y@ef `   ]曇[M/Rv y&RE: PPC Congested Areas~=ÝSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested AreasvR{'DuԡT+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORGSMTPbill@part103.orgZ!_3)Hԙ YP€00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.org00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.orgISASTREETAPERMANENTCONGESTEDAREA,ORPERHAPSATEMPORARYONE?IIRC,THEFAAHASSAIDTHATFLYINGOVERBUILDINGSDOE10.0part103.org00000006bill@part103.org'powerchutes@yahoogroups.com'  5=S04DLd+/:Sp(lX%ʟp |  ? _ @( }  ߓ @:( +)$/D9Return-Path: Received: from n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.55]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jA9NKrHI018110 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:20:54 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=HrpWZayuzthTknlmLsSdTYiAPCxVYrGLgEHYP+ZOxl6a1qTTwT/beek3JEZE0Oo8y96FzrZ+EnxeyBfpVlM+5vVz4Qv8AGf16UEVi+QL5QEuf8T9TT3o/hnsTsMVt9tt; Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 23:20:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.33] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2005 23:20:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bill@part103.org X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44612 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2005 23:20:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2005 23:20:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helmethouse.com) (71.5.47.69) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2005 23:20:48 -0000 Received: from bill (bill [50.0.0.9]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jA9NKioB018088 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:20:47 -0800 To: Message-ID: <00b101c5e584$38c22ae0$09000032@bill> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 71.5.47.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bill Watson" X-Yahoo-Profile: ultraliteteacher Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:20:49 -0800 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by helmethouse.com id jA9NKrHI018110 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 33991 Status: O X-UID: 33991 Content-Length: 4660 X-Keywords: #$QnInteresting, I didn't see such in Part 61 - I see some in Part 91 and Part 103. It is interesting that if flying Part 91 along the freeway from El Paso to Dallas one must stay 500' from the vehicles on the freeway if Part 91, and not limited if Part 103. Bill Watson bill@part103.org 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. (b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft. (c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. (d) Helicopters. Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the Administrator. 103.15 Operations over congested areas. top No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons. -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GaryFisher@bc.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:08 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas In part 61, it describes minimum altitudes for congested, non-congested and sparsely populated areas. Only in sparsely populated areas are you allowed to fly as low as you want, except that you must maintain a distance of 500' from any person, vehicle or structure. Gary Fisher -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Dietro Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:50 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Gary, Where in the FAR's does it say not to get closer than 500' to any vehicle? By vehicle, are you referring to cars, or UL vehicles? Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:31 PM Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > Well, if it is considered a congested area, then you would never be > allowed to cross it at ANY altitude (which is ridiculous). But if you > are flying low over it more than necessary just to get past it, they > could say you are creating a hazard to motorists who might get > distracted by you and cause an accident. They will also frequently use > as guidelines the rules that other pilots are supposed to adhere to > (even though they don't explicitly apply to ultralights), such as the > don't get closer than 500' to any vehicle. > > Gary Fisher Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ p44ĝ9If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about 4:30 in the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane highway. That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the area at the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty congested. Also, I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of cars that passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was about 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, but I believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was congested by a reasonable definition. -- George --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" wrote: > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of Bill Watson > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > When does this show take place? > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ AD `IPM.Note @# &) + .679@; A@B`depq    @ `  @D  ()ߋgvR   B@0@0@ 0?N Y@efX `   L8z@ߥ+Kq3ԥƝԥƝRE: Re: Congested areas*SMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgRe: Congested areas垙>F~^+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill WatsonSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORGSMTPbill@part103.org!_3)Hԙ YP€00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.org00000006bill@part103.orgpart103.orgDOYOUWANTTOHELPPAYTHE$2200FORLEAVINGITALONE?MAYBEONEOFTHEORGSWILLSEEFITTOPAYUPTOLEAVEITALONEBESIDES,<014601c5e59d$5a68c910$da940443@VALUEDB4B48255>10.0part103.org00000006bill@part103.org'FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com'  5=S04DLdAEPidJB<|@`|TTVY   T  $ 000  09( 9, @:U q:0_4_8_<_@_D_H_L_Pgg @`SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com'FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com'SMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com A];XLWD~ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@}? `    @q= ( )@_* ` 5EF0@0@ 0?oef  @!`"#$%'() *@+`,-.6j OD^psentto-313105-166277-1131586110-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511100132521116253039$2e34036Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comlowindagepowerchutes@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Message Posterlowindage@yahoo.comgroups-email216.155.201.61SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340361116253039$2e340361:12:0:024.119.245.15 34036powerchutes@yahoogroups.com8 <LT\u} LP+/CG[ 5WMos.x^c~pQtKReturn-Path: Received: from n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.42]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA1SV85029207 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:28:32 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=RQOjfj9InyA3o0WRo6dKi50b33qIi+4F85dYz9wDQLORtsUkQylHFSQiFRzsBBFNInCkLizQWaOduCnWo3QFmQeMl28Br5t+o6Im/tpmLHdHFQ2T7HxBoJk4T/JWBT3k; Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:28:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.33] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:28:31 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: lowindage@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60686 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 01:28:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 01:28:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.61) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 01:28:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n8.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:28:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:28:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:28:18 -0000 To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 24.119.245.15 From: "lowindage" X-Yahoo-Profile: lowindage Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:28:15 -0000 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34036 Content-Length: 4125 X-Keywords: dX`bo I agree with Bill. The focus should be on what the root cause was for the complaints. If the PPG posed no danger to those on the ground, the point regarding the craft flying over congested areas is not valid. If the complaints are from citizens concerned about, let's say noise, this matter may be more of a case for the Sheriff's Department. If the vehicle is actually an legal ultralight, then I question the FAA's reason for even getting involved in the first place. Can you give more details into what basis the complaints were generated from? Lowindage --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Beckstrom" wrote: > > Bill, > > IMHO the FAA should not focus on the "congested area" from the standpoint of > definition. In other words, "is a 6 lane street a congested area?" is the > wrong question because it leads to debates over the definition or > interpretation of "congested area." > > If you look at the reason for the "congested area" restriction in the FARS > it is there for one purpose -- to prevent ultralights from presenting a > danger to persons or property on the ground. > > Thus the question the FAA needs to ask themselves is -- if the PPG had an > engine out or failure causing an emergency landing at that location would it > present a danger to persons or property? If the answer is no, then case > closed. > > If the pilot could land in the grass and avoid endangering anyone then the > congested rule should not apply. > > > The FAA is remiss in not putting the definition of congested into writing. > They can't hold someone accountable to something they failed to clearly > define. Thus they need to look beyond the FAR to the intent of the FAR > which is to protect the non-flying public. If they aren't in danger, then > there is no problem. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: PPC Congested Areas > > > > I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a > > congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is > > a > > PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a > > congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to > > 'convict' > > a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. > > > > The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the > > time > > it is. > > > > I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: > > 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to > > be > > overcome) > > 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to > > make) > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Bill Watson > > bill@p... > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > Files : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ bh"*_ LZFuXI rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I a th Bl. ThPcu sh`ld bP `/@P`o@caQa! Km StsIfPPG poC no dpgt##b!$ `nd,#"aY eg  g!r&a`ly'bovw$1s e_ !#@v@id.!$!$"")`a piz  )Nc)rut&@le 'ay*'e&B*@/A`-!o"a q !6S@f/q!$De t0+?P(0c/@)tu@(P/@'  t'*gh/q P)Pi%FAA/q)q!e($@@'b v( fi@ Q.`++Cy`;i(1)0#b *,-w%g #R?5Lo& e5-F#Ba/@yauo%p""&@"Da?qBk)Pa0" !w`:m!$>J,KfKfIMHO:q*t%") I@-S%H)Ppd&20Kf - ?" P3a`dsH16 6/0pPH @2a)!$)?I@ADKfJ'q9GI /1aT`$rAG(wR`rKf"ap ["O.I@LL"?ok:OOPR H 9 wrote: > > Bill, > > IMHO the FAA should not focus on the "congested area" from the standpoint of > definition. In other words, "is a 6 lane street a congested area?" is the > wrong question because it leads to debates over the definition or > interpretation of "congested area." > > If you look at the reason for the "congested area" restriction in the FARS > it is there for one purpose -- to prevent ultralights from presenting a > danger to persons or property on the ground. > > Thus the question the FAA needs to ask themselves is -- if the PPG had an > engine out or failure causing an emergency landing at that location would it > present a danger to persons or property? If the answer is no, then case > closed. > > If the pilot could land in the grass and avoid endangering anyone then the > congested rule should not apply. > > > The FAA is remiss in not putting the definition of congested into writing. > They can't hold someone accountable to something they failed to clearly > define. Thus they need to look beyond the FAR to the intent of the FAR > which is to protect the non-flying public. If they aren't in danger, then > there is no problem. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:15 PM > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: PPC Congested Areas > > > > I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a > > congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is > > a > > PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a > > congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to > > 'convict' > > a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. > > > > The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the > > time > > it is. > > > > I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: > > 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to > > be > > overcome) > > 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to > > make) > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Bill Watson > > bill@p... > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > Files : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ tp"* > From: "Bill Watson" > >I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a >congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a >PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a >congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' >a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. > >The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time >it is. I think they're screwing up the intent of the (vague) rule when they say that a street is a "congested area". The logical conclusion from that has to be that the craft cannot cross any streets which obviously should never have been the intention. The intention is to keep the PPG guy out of the suburbs and cities, so he is not flying over homes and businesses, etc, it being desired that he not make a pest of himself, and that he not create a danger to others. Then, when crossing streets, he needs to do so at a very safe and considerate height. The theory must be that if he is forced to land, there should be a very high likelihood he could land on either side of the street far from the street, and not right in the street. However, any PPG'er generating complaints, probably needs to be prosecuted, and he probably is flying as either a pest or as a danger to others. Worse, such activities just might result in clarifications to a vague rule, and the clarification might be, "freeways are congested areas, therefore ultralights can never cross a freeway!" And that, would really be crap! It could be very important to get these PPG guys the hell away from the freeway (eg 1000' above, and just a quick flyover), and to not make an issue of the freeways. Whatever they are doing to generate complaints, .... twould be better if they'd stop doing it. Mike ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  x:^ > From: "Bill Watson" > >I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a >congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a >PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a >congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' >a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. > >The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time >it is. I think they're screwing up the intent of the (vague) rule when they say that a street is a "congested area". The logical conclusion from that has to be that the craft cannot cross any streets which obviously should never have been the intention. The intention is to keep the PPG guy out of the suburbs and cities, so he is not flying over homes and businesses, etc, it being desired that he not make a pest of himself, and that he not create a danger to others. Then, when crossing streets, he needs to do so at a very safe and considerate height. The theory must be that if he is forced to land, there should be a very high likelihood he could land on either side of the street far from the street, and not right in the street. However, any PPG'er generating complaints, probably needs to be prosecuted, and he probably is flying as either a pest or as a danger to others. Worse, such activities just might result in clarifications to a vague rule, and the clarification might be, "freeways are congested areas, therefore ultralights can never cross a freeway!" And that, would really be crap! It could be very important to get these PPG guys the hell away from the freeway (eg 1000' above, and just a quick flyover), and to not make an issue of the freeways. Whatever they are doing to generate complaints, .... twould be better if they'd stop doing it. Mike ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  :^ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@}? `    @@=( ( )@_j+` 5BEFf@0@0@ 0?oe f@` !"#$% '@()`*+,-. 6Q0KI7G@0Re: PPC Congested Areas$i"SMTP:GEORGE7777@AOL.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTghawkjrSMTPgeorge7777@aol.comghawkjr+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPgeorge7777@aol.comPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com%00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillIFIRECALLMYREADINGOFTHEDOCUMENTSCORRECTLY,ITWASATABOUT4:30INTHEAFTERNOONINCALIFORNIA,INAPLACETHATREQ<4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C7@teamail.teamservices.com>sentto-313105-166281-1131587438-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com̗ڛ&b200511100154431116253039$2e34045Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comghawkjrpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Message Postergeorge7777@aol.comgroups-email66.94.237.41SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340451116253039$2e340451:12:0:024.96.114.138 34045powerchutes@yahoogroups.com: \lt|(/fj1DH\`t $,Np.^/AMYCKXV %|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei8Jql|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUk._!)-1@b&[tj ?_@֦?_@ާ]dE5=A:[v#ߟ@ҧD=Yaߠei@ڤ^S #MUVR;wδ|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com JeiWۄ|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei Ul|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkt ?l|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkx̄|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei b=ߙ@A:?_@њ~Uߡ@"H `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @k/ ( )@߉` 5EF0@0@ 0?Nef  @!`"#$%'() *`+,-.8@R} Nˎ:8 m mUL: Congested AreaspSMTP:SPORTTRIKER@HOTPOP.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTMike HuckleSMTPSportTriker@hotpop.comMike Huckle+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPSportTriker@hotpop.comCongested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com(00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillFROM:"BILLWATSON"sentto-371046-67927-1131586581-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511100138211116253039$2e34038Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.commikehuckleFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comQUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22SportTriker@hotpop.comgroups-email38.113.3.61SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET autolearn=no version=3.0.4----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com -----------------------------------------------POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340381116253039$2e340381:12:0:0 34038FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com8 <LT\qyRV#7;O2<^b&T- 2 H D:vP0Return-Path: Received: from n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.35]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA1oc4H030572 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:50:38 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=e4KOZsdoWYatlVZyukp2gRmu2kl0deMj3Yj00vgijIKyfuGEhNrIvRWDQSA+VU2RoQkqbex5PvrlB2o0Rs3J0B32L4isGDfAiJl4rNGRlHCHQImIutLhxN7cy+pOq7lK; Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:50:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.36] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:50:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: george7777@aol.com X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71567 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 01:50:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 01:50:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 01:50:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:50:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 01:50:35 -0000 To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4CAF94DA94469540BF2A40863780303146C1C7@teamail.teamservices.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.41 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 24.96.114.138 From: "ghawkjr" X-Yahoo-Profile: ghawkjr Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:50:32 -0000 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34045 Content-Length: 2005 X-Keywords: l{l|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg# ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkLj(͒xe\RL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > > > Files : > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: Skyryder@mt.net > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > Files : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------- End of Original Message ------- Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ д],|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei$ h  ? _  @nӪ &KRIf I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about 4:30 in the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane highway. That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the area at the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty congested. Also, I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of cars that passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was about 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, but I believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was congested by a reasonable definition. -- George --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" wrote: > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of Bill Watson > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > When does this show take place? > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ DReturn-Path: Received: from n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.40]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA2NpKk032626 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:23:51 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=JraszYhNKhpaOGhuX+WLPw6j5BUBlUMVErXu83JvSo0ZXKUe7xmR2iSg/lVQF7nqJcatS3FewwDko6vTmAKSk03mNupMzz3uHmUj3iJys8uBV6woU7dTIb6oRJGCuyTb; Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 02:23:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.61] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 02:23:50 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bill@part103.org X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1467 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 02:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 02:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helmethouse.com) (71.5.47.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 02:23:48 -0000 Received: from bill (bill [50.0.0.9]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jAA2NYo3032611 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:23:37 -0800 To: Message-ID: <00e801c5e59d$c3b21020$09000032@bill> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 71.5.47.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bill Watson" X-Yahoo-Profile: ultraliteteacher Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:23:40 -0800 Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34058 Content-Length: 4334 X-Keywords: \ C #RL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > > > Files : > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: Skyryder@mt.net > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > Files : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------- End of Original Message ------- Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ],|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com JeiT - `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @@#( ( )@ߊ, ` 59EFf@0@0@ 0?e f@` !"#$% &@'`()*+,-. 4yN3UGpPp @W-EUL: Re: Congested areas9AYSMTP:DAVEMATHENY@PNGUSA.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTDave and Jean MathenySMTPdavematheny@pngusa.netDave and Jean Matheny+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPdavematheny@pngusa.netRe: Congested areasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com)<\00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillMYVIEWIS:LETSJUSTLEAVEITALONEASSOONASITBECAMECLEAR,INABOUT1983,THATTHEFAAWASDISINCLINEDTODEFINE"CONG<014601c5e59d$5a68c910$da940443@VALUEDB4B48255><1131569416.204.1576.m17@yahoogroups.com>sentto-371046-67928-1131589245-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.comr:&b200511100221521116253039$2e34056Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comdavematheny3000FLY-UL@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180davematheny@pngusa.netgroups-email206.62.11.5Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340561116253039$2e340561:12:0:0 34056FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com: \lt|>S.2H[_sw "*Ln*U 5KWb Syz 4] Return-Path: Received: from n10.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com (n10.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com [216.155.201.63]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA2KkVU032491 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:20:47 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=Gd86mEqsmjsaiTTJlnG0faz7Xm+QcJiaVjvqNpgqZPkeNaZp8Aw2PytPfA6QZBLus/Kv5eOJgqmAz5TN2eOQMylkT5fbcuv15dPAXOZDxmHFFfYiIo6H3x0rqNtuzdNg; Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n10.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 02:20:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 02:20:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.93] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 02:20:45 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: davematheny@pngusa.net X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8252 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 02:20:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 02:20:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO accel.pngusa.net) (206.62.11.5) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 02:20:44 -0000 Received: from VALUEDB4B48255 (accel.pngusa.net [127.0.0.1]) by accel.pngusa.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id jAA1HsfJ032175 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:17:58 -0500 Received: from 0-1pool150-110.nas8.minneapolis1.mn.us.da.qwest.net (davematheny@pngusa.net@0-1pool150-110.nas8.minneapolis1.mn.us.da.qwest.net [67.4.150.110]) by accel.pngusa.net (SlipStream SP Server 3.1.68 built 2004/04/13 15:24:52 -0400 (EDT)); Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:17:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <014601c5e59d$5a68c910$da940443@VALUEDB4B48255> To: References: <1131569416.204.1576.m17@yahoogroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 206.62.11.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Dave and Jean Matheny" X-Yahoo-Profile: davematheny3000 Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:20:42 -0600 Subject: UL: Re: Congested areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34056 Content-Length: 2948 X-Keywords: a$n~My view is: Let's just leave it alone. As soon as it became clear, in about 1983, that the FAA was disinclined to define "congested areas," it also became clear that this reluctance worked in our favor. While it may be obvious that lower Manhattan would have to be a "congested area," it is not at all necessary that, say, a suburb of Cleveland is also a "congested area." In case the value of that haziness is not obvious, the fact is that if one were charged with overflying a "congested area," one could always argue that it has never been defined just what "congested area" means -- not officially, anyway. Not in any courtroom that I've heard of. Back in the late 1980s, a local FAA official came to one of my ultralight club's meetings and was asked (big mistake) to define "congested area." He did. He defined a certain local river, the St. Croix, as a "congested area" on every Saturday and Sunday. Given that there are areas of the St. Croix where boats almost never go, and that even at its average level of busy-ness it's only about as congested as an acre of corn being worked by a tractor, this was a crazy rule, and one that we promptly forgot. But it shows what happens when you ask. There are lots of people who will say that the yellow areas on sectional charts are "congested areas." However, the FAA, as far as I know, has never said that. The agency has had 20-plus years to define the term and has not. That alone should tell you something. My advice: Leave it. If you force the FAA to define "congested area," you won't like their definition. Guaranteed. --Dave Matheny I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ i,FDF  LZFu3Y rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cPs d36P y v: LE ' jus@leave`@@ \e. A s^o  ba car,` qu@1983!t@"FAA w d !` { "o $A "ng$p ps," @ "  @c$zwk$aT!a f. W(p` *Pb ` "wMp"))Qul$p$;+Ta%&(no  )0 7"!1y!/Psubpb*Pf$C`{ `n$p(&/_.z"ZI!#v@ P3r"z$A0,"*(0"*P%aT-!A%$p"*Prfly g5/0R;.@#y4<8")8041 #%3$pw"%&"--0T3%@c1=2ny@*N1!F?r `p"I'# 3qKBоk!# `"R0:!>! #RE7A!1$;3m.H @igh@!`3  =44# )(bN+))$%/5 H.#d*SB>)0 qLS=a:4St*C`ix24C&EAktpd+4rSu4FGVJ"%$A$p- P,arR)#rH`4rAl2p13;l.1qn @(a%K| )0*I3nk)1#R8>&n; 'Ai)#iRct1[qu p KE D-@#FZ6+7+A$p"1N1.0@ $# g g"%0"0aO5|Qb!4#CI"=H3=>d%В$p 4TPPG.2==,*AA>6K!R0 WA#p#RsY $0f((EP02 0$j #d3#PR#|&!7'%Q.!'"{a&k b_@r:"?0k.0(30ddGzΘ0?L cu@$G*11$n**-@3l!1 %m@p:// .$!J.yʐp/dpRU5A /wUIL#`/yXQLSQTB/TMΏϟЯĆT$a# lp_P0:=-.-@ ǣ$L PZ<*Ā@3Ճ)Aeb!`@$ņ00ՅՃ/FLY-UL/$[ 3+R(TՃ2 &!YݤԐX.Y*b 8#(3jt2c܊ /~r`eZ}Pu0=BDIs a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary one? IIRC, the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute a congested area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building was occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, then the same standard should be applied to the road. I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the bird's eye view) said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. No other witness could say otherwise. Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based upon a subsequent video recording. There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when disproven. 103.9 and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have a hearing. They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps such standing would be 'as an expert'? The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide roads planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't necessarily mean heavily travelled. The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' decision made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and disturbed traffic. At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, the FAA clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to match. I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might be considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness park area to another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby and some jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ghawkjr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about 4:30 in the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane highway. That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the area at the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty congested. Also, I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of cars that passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was about 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, but I believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was congested by a reasonable definition. -- George --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" wrote: > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of Bill Watson > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > When does this show take place? > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ "`r LZFu rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I a st @ >p @ngd a, 7pmp[ y` ?IRCPthe FAA  s pE!a@fly g`vbud#! donoS@itu|0 c!!p$u#$!s #$@"p!!# w"!occu'@$^.)p*pc w&o#& #"f,r!s!"P1pd 0h'- P*,!q`ad. I ju@ 0@k12/'5 q P% 4!!(!)Ji ' ey!vw)"I1v*S$*8`A!o%0+N,$!5 '"P ;e1Al(p"D*b7{*0%`)t% /ab" *5B0ub4A70, #1T;!,nu`2;" wP#@d`0w.#sp`#pn+`103.95cI15! ( "1% l /D!*`01h'5, `( y $2P5r$eI"#p! L E Qc,'Nm5"$LW4!' `{p+PCT(w=0F'"!t'?L`,D!1(#@ t*)r"&SAC!Q6*A)"1Nѝ `n--5P7"a$wRC]6A8s$Rn'@ &Q(Q70(PQqL0 LE-#"xr'*&BKG!'cBQ `w'(5A)2'83H PPSEL"@P *`y{PwP5rI!%@r-"  +A8AP91J19c5^0'7p#da-='#pNcGs'+S&n!xpQGn5r0ZS;FO$*/%aJu,~t100,!lpNgu,a P&?x6f-gheb$)!!zZ!A% R$"WG ! dy=G "!HJx"!"P%0t_r P2Nn E?b5`n'NUFbAh@_1" ;B-%S88&՗5rVSI02H"yQ,A $-%b* G2-0RRr,(,q70&2d?<(8-RG5"1GCGQ=OhP"hJohK;_ski Jr" *P`:2>Ռa?r!6h jn8XPF PFԯ0`F/PǗI:27wPڴgEF(p5B#`48G'H1c= -Пѯҿ/2"_3ؿpʽڏ۟ܨ1JAݟ_߿͡H$bN0!3`4Ѝ?O U;^U C!--7[Lm`w rky @. tuURj1CNs{ptp://e / }gL/2bUw w. FG`u ϽE/G utY">!gsK<*7!|PyUAxВr׮R!,bPg1Q/ _TxryQ9X!?OYBAr|TҡQjo/m}.v 2h. m `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@}_ `     @o? ( )@yl ` 5BEF0@0@ 0?Nef @ `!"#$%& '@()`*+,-.eɶesGP(<7P(<7RE: PPC Congested AreasYÝSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill Watson+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comUɝ00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillISASTREETAPERMANENTCONGESTEDAREA,ORPERHAPSATEMPORARYONE?IIRC,THEFAAHASSAIDTHATFLYINGOVERBUILDINGSDOE<00e801c5e59d$c3b21020$09000032@bill>sentto-313105-166283-1131589429-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511100226571116253039$2e34058Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comultraliteteacherpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626bill@part103.orggroups-email71.5.47.69Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340581116253039$2e340581:12:0:0 34058powerchutes@yahoogroups.com9 L\dl#Z^#6:NRf@b4} )3`$JRN 8Ә} mLZFu8 rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P Do y` wp@thelp y $2PCleav g i@@ e?@b ! fb g' l f2uoR.!t!tBeis,  c @ "q@ aa"y@guP` ncd. Th!t 0  o$ /p$I!# FAA  (pu %q("B*r-(:!tP)k`!tN -0?!S lPPopu `0!t)* [0i !/w`l/ (q )!%!3p3'!tq :!n %n&@ 8r:Qa)A"Q"go@a-P-ok'!t3(q:F&Qr@ su p/"':!-:d8g;5c$( =h`'2.E`)$"BW'Vs !tb"A@ t103.!$-I2ZOg ?Msa1I3!tFa:,LY-UL@yaDo `ps.m [:KqL] O%li! Of!tD#@rJ` pqny2&qKpW 0sd@%1p$09%@5 6:213pM4M`KL2ubjRUPTR/!10'3_R0%=^ ,߃FtA^1 m#QM@?Ih^`V" @T(&f(Gpmf)-)r_ Hk`)A=?&@ qU5cw4St)C`ixo@Qs[]a2P+R@cV@BG5q':%X!xx:Dq`(q$=@/'q1]q'a*JQAqA!p0sy-v}" 3Q_(X@R  febQ?)p%9-)?zPr3e 'j&p03Q=A)B_1sDw"'!tpp@'"A$5!:%!3hA"4C'yiv'")p6?ьe:!bi,Gg&I k:w%~$J@%'.1; P&/- P@A-)rrL@r~")n3x6pG'Qg(qnűg;) p5 CDd1ૅ=`p://@@7La0.LL/dpRU5A/wUIL,/yQLS aSyTlB/TTe _ ` o%<* TZЌ@ CLSfAD%=@#/ppLULS/U/ psikfaeTLSo;XaaM!U&hU%=YgbDpr&qW!B=c#^/E}3 @/!> > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > > > Files : > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: Skyryder@mt.net > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > Files : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------- End of Original Message ------- Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ?[ F ߕ  @cV oPGIs a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary one? IIRC, the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute a congested area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building was occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, then the same standard should be applied to the road. I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the bird's eye view) said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. No other witness could say otherwise. Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based upon a subsequent video recording. There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when disproven. 103.9 and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have a hearing. They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps such standing would be 'as an expert'? The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide roads planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't necessarily mean heavily travelled. The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' decision made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and disturbed traffic. At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, the FAA clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to match. I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might be considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness park area to another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby and some jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ghawkjr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about 4:30 in the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane highway. That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the area at the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty congested. Also, I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of cars that passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was about 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, but I believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was congested by a reasonable definition. -- George --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" wrote: > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of Bill Watson > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > When does this show take place? > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ o]OQ xLZFu0] rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I a st @ >p @ngd a, 7pmp[ y` ?IRC, the` FAA  s p!a@fly g`vbu&d#q donoS@ituwo!0 c"!p%u$0$!s #P$""'$ w"p!occu'$.*k+pc w'o#' #rf-rP!!!o"1pd 0h(S- P+-!`ad.!!I ju@ 0@k2X21' q P%a 5a!(!*$i R' ey"vw)0&"2*$+9`A!o%,N-%!r!71 (D" =re3;Al)":R9{:0%`*%p0b"p+60%ub6!A8p- $B3;T="-snu`40=T`#0 P$@d`2fw/$@sp`#n,103.9&5aL15' )a "%pl 0F!+02Rh'- `)a $2P6$eK"Q#! O8G S-(qQ0m6"b$N5!(A `p,PE@0%Ww1'"qt'?O~`-FQ1)a$@ tBq*#&CaC"BT7*)w2+% Qn.-~5P8@#0a$w,P2`A7QCe:$n'@ 'pTq#P!TQ8p)aPSN OoE-#rxr(`*D G"@'cD1 `w') f3)'83J PPSEL#1@P +yPwP6KQ%r-"  35A9CP91M 19c7b@h0')KAde>'K#Q0cIs',S'Vn/"!u@TqIsV62]sR k^-LVH<#r! / `H2cc"b1q$Tab 6)!j0HKu o-lg'S=f3;BNW#)!7]N@^"Lg3J-Og @e!Fa:c0%s@ya1pno `.V@[3]o:] OmBu@*O*l`kj=`0W >A1pA=0#909PRM@5:51XMGUEP/@RenC!(3J3*4FQ; !*Ce$+;>rrFQ]'^JQ4:3P !q.$65C@A5 `'s# 6 7'"x-aQVqp!T#8KD )R `"-J$-dB'c^e%'#!0CksEI"m Pr@y1,@!u4Q!n AB6B`nUB(APHCRCalb"`"pr&(.BI6b3;GF I?CP"JohK*`:!>5AR"6l@ Wjr[԰զ԰զЛ԰?԰K:2~7g԰WEXզ)6#5@8J$(DJagp?r-2/!޿zM@A/?OK$Q#1a 4t XRn2QBӀ tpx://bt/ ie[1L{!`bXw. iFI᭠/ /IY!ka?"o$O // O _ o/./?O?12 !<*EpyX}׵"vrHb~g/P,7;|BCҧADjaTo/m=}Tp %jtpIs a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary one? IIRC, the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute a congested area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building was occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, then the same standard should be applied to the road. I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the bird's eye view) said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. No other witness could say otherwise. Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based upon a subsequent video recording. There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when disproven. 103.9 and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have a hearing. They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps such standing would be 'as an expert'? The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide roads planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't necessarily mean heavily travelled. The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' decision made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and disturbed traffic. At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, the FAA clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to match. I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might be considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness park area to another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby and some jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ghawkjr Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about 4:30 in the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane highway. That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the area at the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty congested. Also, I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of cars that passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was about 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, but I believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was congested by a reasonable definition. -- George --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" wrote: > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of Bill Watson > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > When does this show take place? > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ o!pOQDo you want to help pay the $2200 for leaving it alone? Maybe one of the org's will see fit to pay up to leave it alone. Besides, precedent has been set in that the first guy was convicted. This needs overturning. If the FAA is to define stuff, they will need to define: Congested Area Non-Congested Area Sparsely Populated Area The river mentioned would best be considered Sparsely populated in that there are no residences populating the area. All you gotta do is look at the latest Federal Census and see that there is nobody populating the river. (maybe a houseboat or 2...) Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave and Jean Matheny Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 6:21 PM To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Subject: UL: Re: Congested areas My view is: Let's just leave it alone. As soon as it became clear, in about 1983, that the FAA was disinclined to define "congested areas," it also became clear that this reluctance worked in our favor. While it may be obvious that lower Manhattan would have to be a "congested area," it is not at all necessary that, say, a suburb of Cleveland is also a "congested area." In case the value of that haziness is not obvious, the fact is that if one were charged with overflying a "congested area," one could always argue that it has never been defined just what "congested area" means -- not officially, anyway. Not in any courtroom that I've heard of. Back in the late 1980s, a local FAA official came to one of my ultralight club's meetings and was asked (big mistake) to define "congested area." He did. He defined a certain local river, the St. Croix, as a "congested area" on every Saturday and Sunday. Given that there are areas of the St. Croix where boats almost never go, and that even at its average level of busy-ness it's only about as congested as an acre of corn being worked by a tractor, this was a crazy rule, and one that we promptly forgot. But it shows what happens when you ask. There are lots of people who will say that the yellow areas on sectional charts are "congested areas." However, the FAA, as far as I know, has never said that. The agency has had 20-plus years to define the term and has not. That alone should tell you something. My advice: Leave it. If you force the FAA to define "congested area," you won't like their definition. Guaranteed. --Dave Matheny I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ U+PLReturn-Path: Received: from n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com (n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com [216.155.201.60]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA2TeQt000455 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:29:40 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=KY6720QQaP5/885+riBUCqMNZyJdnOFb1bSNaDkOok87Hw1evYm/zB3iFOvFawWoSfhJWr98XwjZc9InhpwhiLmbOFLgj0TEkV5YINxD0rUz3QHanvgfC5S6xs7h5O8e; Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 02:29:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 02:29:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.35] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 02:29:39 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bill@part103.org X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70504 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 02:29:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 02:29:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helmethouse.com) (71.5.47.69) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 02:29:38 -0000 Received: from bill (bill [50.0.0.9]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jAA2TYmw000447 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:29:37 -0800 To: Message-ID: <00e901c5e59e$9a1d1d80$09000032@bill> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <014601c5e59d$5a68c910$da940443@VALUEDB4B48255> X-Originating-IP: 71.5.47.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bill Watson" X-Yahoo-Profile: ultraliteteacher Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:29:40 -0800 Subject: UL: RE: Re: Congested areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34060 Content-Length: 3870 X-Keywords: 2> > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > > > Files : > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: Skyryder@mt.net > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > Files : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------- End of Original Message ------- Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ?1 F ? _$ ( , @g" cGReturn-Path: Received: from n10.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com (n10.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com [216.155.201.63]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA3XJtT003859 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:33:19 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=EuOf9TA3vpCBScuNvVmc1TS0Yxwumd80mEMqsEaT3kv3Y5O/RHZFoz/A0yep6bsYTEC1uRwcnzNNdhcRIcEunTRhdzr/V2PI40WE3PoCh1sW0RFHjI8zbBkGAg2mAK9A; Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n10.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:33:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:33:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.34] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:33:18 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: garyo@bak.rr.com X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78016 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 03:33:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 03:33:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.socal.rr.com) (66.75.162.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 03:33:17 -0000 Received: from garys (cpe-24-161-194-212.bak.res.rr.com [24.161.194.212]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.socal.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id jAA3WZDr009037 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:32:45 -0800 (PST) To: Message-ID: <001201c5e5a7$670ef5e0$6401a8c0@garys> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 In-reply-to: <6.0.0.22.1.20051109145551.06851850@pop.hotpop.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Originating-IP: 66.75.162.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Gary Orpe" X-Yahoo-Profile: garyo263 Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:32:34 -0800 Subject: UL: RE: Congested Areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34081 Content-Length: 3548 X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 34082 X-Keywords: ' UÐ'unL X ߖ` d h @[^ Y ? _  @ݚ ԚX `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @ < ( )@?x* ` _5BEF0@0@ 0?Nef @ `!"#$%& '@()`*+,-.|TCo႐??UL: RE: Re: Congested areas홞SMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBill WatsonSMTPbill@part103.orgBill Watson+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPbill@part103.orgRE: Re: Congested areasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com홞00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillDOYOUWANTTOHELPPAYTHE$2200FORLEAVINGITALONE?MAYBEONEOFTHEORGSWILLSEEFITTOPAYUPTOLEAVEITALONEBESIDES,<00e901c5e59e$9a1d1d80$09000032@bill><014601c5e59d$5a68c910$da940443@VALUEDB4B48255>sentto-371046-67929-1131589778-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511100232331116253039$2e34060Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comultraliteteacherFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626bill@part103.orggroups-email71.5.47.69Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340601116253039$2e340601:12:0:0 34060FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com9 L\dl'^b-1EI]@#kI{ 3;2 ɈlDo you want to help pay the $2200 for leaving it alone? Maybe one of the org's will see fit to pay up to leave it alone. Besides, precedent has been set in that the first guy was convicted. This needs overturning. If the FAA is to define stuff, they will need to define: Congested Area Non-Congested Area Sparsely Populated Area The river mentioned would best be considered Sparsely populated in that there are no residences populating the area. All you gotta do is look at the latest Federal Census and see that there is nobody populating the river. (maybe a houseboat or 2...) Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave and Jean Matheny Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 6:21 PM To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Subject: UL: Re: Congested areas My view is: Let's just leave it alone. As soon as it became clear, in about 1983, that the FAA was disinclined to define "congested areas," it also became clear that this reluctance worked in our favor. While it may be obvious that lower Manhattan would have to be a "congested area," it is not at all necessary that, say, a suburb of Cleveland is also a "congested area." In case the value of that haziness is not obvious, the fact is that if one were charged with overflying a "congested area," one could always argue that it has never been defined just what "congested area" means -- not officially, anyway. Not in any courtroom that I've heard of. Back in the late 1980s, a local FAA official came to one of my ultralight club's meetings and was asked (big mistake) to define "congested area." He did. He defined a certain local river, the St. Croix, as a "congested area" on every Saturday and Sunday. Given that there are areas of the St. Croix where boats almost never go, and that even at its average level of busy-ness it's only about as congested as an acre of corn being worked by a tractor, this was a crazy rule, and one that we promptly forgot. But it shows what happens when you ask. There are lots of people who will say that the yellow areas on sectional charts are "congested areas." However, the FAA, as far as I know, has never said that. The agency has had 20-plus years to define the term and has not. That alone should tell you something. My advice: Leave it. If you force the FAA to define "congested area," you won't like their definition. Guaranteed. --Dave Matheny I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ]+PL LZFu0 rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P I hope y`" n. o th@FAA jus@wpd#8guy  up#2A pPno@ca@1m `u`@@h?F2`ne" b@!42ru#PeW dlP "!"1$T,#whu ( b!46bpFe" ats#Bk A$ks(!4DaviP-./0!403/4?5O17o8w95:-;p$ us@yao `ps.)("B W+! " A@pj.?p>!%w`:!4>@ a$# @A0r ! g2 +(BQ=A( *e$#IIRC,@6 s pR+P fly gCv+pdHq '! itHP&-@#I?Gp@occ pPw!IOQpcGa`Q0%COJpW!bGpA!4 p]BV#0\B-e IBgTe!)!Snu#jqe"C!H0 (+p@d`XA)@V!!4I@sp`H103.9K!u"15C# N$GJp>QWSo?pDcMUo) $ !etGQHJ@ xzpq}c'qz"AGb!x'2M `pPD5!4mVzwX'GqBQt'?x$cSnBNI@ ,kTHLskaCGB}?OB!4Yr;Q QnT-5P_`H0a!w?y^keaCIn'A!C$L~QHP@~1-N#}q$ xyA%HrB&QOGql$l G'""A `w'tO! YOa'83sAPPSELH1@CAP y($(!tqJr%lf A(Dk҉(91v`19c]э0')qdRf'Hzc#Ps'SLn(!4q@@~QrAV!XC3(q{$ pW Av5!4tГ@l z(L?^ETgh"GJAOA!шBJpxpaHD+C dyoArq GqsvGqHD(J"$'pf!4 kLduxqcHr2 U `qYsyGbWI~Ab!5c!@j+q)F@r#Se!fo>9@?~;;Og @Б"C C@Fa:Jo:hsK($ , Jr>jzk@Rp?A@ @>iR@6@*BꟘWZ(/? o 8˺ ou:|27oEӯԺ q>rak8rM0s!0fb->2"?O_?:o+o ˺vA- !/''zWsIzW[0[`>?~1)$5C56 U0mci{BCJ-0EDALkqwwrF52@kyry@(Ep>RpYzBî@tpx://s"M/CY0LJFJ{2bBCMEwTP.CY:FrSHZ7MON_C/rZAY!#Iڤ]O^_PB/C?H_ EFGIQZ wULM/XOMP_h?RSTV}jk?Y_ڤ[\ڤ<*5 @y"粿a0b@gi-`_qu/v?Zze d"!`A-|dOe_)zY{RAx<|}Q~ziao/Qmwڤ} *Ɂ ?_@K_$y>ߛ@wA g"ZReturn-Path: Received: from n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com (n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com [216.155.201.60]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA36XSl002483 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:06:33 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=U5v+Mq+zSwb3fE3LadKkp6QkyAEvAKzgrhHxLb7bwaaCUCFxrKihx/8bFpLGvq+tj6EXgXGXWQwzUDdfwesoVqaF44hbiZMNewZaZKCQbncMH1lHl/RQe1MimG6/xun4; Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:06:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:06:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.35] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:06:31 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: ultraman@communityweb.net X-Apparently-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77694 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 03:06:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 03:06:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailsite2.communityweb.net) (216.162.1.102) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 03:06:30 -0000 Received: from susankey (unverified [216.162.14.70]) by communityweb.net (Rockliffe SMTPRA 5.3.11) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:54:55 -0500 Message-ID: <040101c5e5a4$2e450680$360ea2d8@susankey> To: References: <00e901c5e59e$9a1d1d80$09000032@bill> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Originating-IP: 216.162.1.102 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "jeff key" X-Yahoo-Profile: hawkman5032000 Sender: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; contact FLY-UL-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:09:34 -0500 Subject: UL: Re: RE: Re: Congested areas Reply-To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34068 Content-Length: 4897 X-Keywords: T5][The ORGS aren't going to pay for nothing, they don't even give support to there members or BFI's, all they want is your money, cause they are non-profit, But it's funny they live like Rich people. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Watson To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: UL: RE: Re: Congested areas Do you want to help pay the $2200 for leaving it alone? Maybe one of the org's will see fit to pay up to leave it alone. Besides, precedent has been set in that the first guy was convicted. This needs overturning. If the FAA is to define stuff, they will need to define: Congested Area Non-Congested Area Sparsely Populated Area The river mentioned would best be considered Sparsely populated in that there are no residences populating the area. All you gotta do is look at the latest Federal Census and see that there is nobody populating the river. (maybe a houseboat or 2...) Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave and Jean Matheny Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 6:21 PM To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Subject: UL: Re: Congested areas My view is: Let's just leave it alone. As soon as it became clear, in about 1983, that the FAA was disinclined to define "congested areas," it also became clear that this reluctance worked in our favor. While it may be obvious that lower Manhattan would have to be a "congested area," it is not at all necessary that, say, a suburb of Cleveland is also a "congested area." In case the value of that haziness is not obvious, the fact is that if one were charged with overflying a "congested area," one could always argue that it has never been defined just what "congested area" means -- not officially, anyway. Not in any courtroom that I've heard of. Back in the late 1980s, a local FAA official came to one of my ultralight club's meetings and was asked (big mistake) to define "congested area." He did. He defined a certain local river, the St. Croix, as a "congested area" on every Saturday and Sunday. Given that there are areas of the St. Croix where boats almost never go, and that even at its average level of busy-ness it's only about as congested as an acre of corn being worked by a tractor, this was a crazy rule, and one that we promptly forgot. But it shows what happens when you ask. There are lots of people who will say that the yellow areas on sectional charts are "congested areas." However, the FAA, as far as I know, has never said that. The agency has had 20-plus years to define the term and has not. That alone should tell you something. My advice: Leave it. If you force the FAA to define "congested area," you won't like their definition. Guaranteed. --Dave Matheny I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "FLY-UL" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ \3` LZFue rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P The ORG % '@go g to y noth,@d ev i P suppB  BFI'sp@; wp@ ya! pcaun-p`HfitpBu#tc"unnl 'kR hpdeo Pe. -)  n@sag))6:Fa:" WaLts +wTo,@FLY-UL@yahoo `ps.m+w`0,@W $sdpNo P1" 09p05 9:29 PM/Wubj0. ,@RE3e,@P dras)45:)>D`$!#Qlps $21)av&P#$?" "`$"`f)6g&#!&AF B89V)%)6Bi"& /7P5 " a# ,7&@uw# n93@ .)6$ "Q P op >]I:+AA#Q D u;DRG(:)64H5)60%J_/ lP(u `J-'D!0i$4w`l4" B1:!B?b!MH!NAE)6!%O?Sn@ S4CpA#!6@a#okpAW)6N"B1F@r*qC  p4<"Av!#dRVO)'(:X .p%A2.`@)>m,x)6 b,q@ t103.;q5)*)+-.[P:f.^] ?@l:Of5=[2J59_'P/_0o1w6212I-.2345/)rM9,@L &j%@=5A ,,@9Q" $$}8rpAA`@1x983rAFBd zGI)6Ge"Bs,"9D,z Af# @3@p@Pr(@t@)6AA$2f8CpW0)9B^Q\o9_qAdw9nAAP Q:!)6X ~\c9a9bHU*r'b,p*$X bpb:I) P `[A#3."E}$%v@ P:AzGEus3@FA:C)6aQ*P&P(DfM:RQ@#y[;S؃@T$P@Gdt@wwA~")r: 1M"'PCpnA#!R `/!As"  :>^XAC(N1{r0"X$ Fߠf$zQQ:Um]T:(ĝ`;7Ay7pA@3@P*qẢ!~ϮrQwF@I kwp5*?pAcOT*U@rt@& @$zG7r/0[2"ZQWu,#>]u`CsvwCpFQ6qFG86(#BGT&PPu #Da>])klE}R&.0@ !dF g AQPpDYpq*RFX wd*Pp C)6PPGpPPX 6YG ѲFF 0 'f7pc/ }!ƶ@7FR_R8hf'B'X'AsرZqt"/ S,Ct19#8d\k7Ԧc Ŧ?50%vPp9`En't@(##A[@Ӂ'B1!b"PI1MP30 `as/cAs F&U^\zG :D/^V2!A^VhpN#kyy{`R,`ao5NH7b9s3Bq-N-g_^VY!!"3vzP%?&O /!?"M+ ds-?.O/_0oeYAHOO#ROUPSvINK35`@PV}䑻"2pԙ7`b^G4R374p=ZŐi!fagUtAhrI4Qp)9(q?7O4Rc4Y_#\Gr ø#UTacmprrP+?,FGH1/J [顠n-x"Peesd]K/EQ#M aqQdq~dp>%Gw1B5C0C#ĄPl #U5C*b^Tptp://_" Х .*s"/dpRU5A/wUIL /yQLS]ASyplB/TpT?_`aU@Uv4(o)*R#_$l<*Up8ᅐ5 60;Zfu[fs/p/h8:;4%<=o@ABl\mz/R 5O}}@d &`}The ORGS aren't going to pay for nothing, they don't even give support to there members or BFI's, all they want is your money, cause they are non-profit, But it's funny they live like Rich people. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Watson To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: UL: RE: Re: Congested areas Do you want to help pay the $2200 for leaving it alone? Maybe one of the org's will see fit to pay up to leave it alone. Besides, precedent has been set in that the first guy was convicted. This needs overturning. If the FAA is to define stuff, they will need to define: Congested Area Non-Congested Area Sparsely Populated Area The river mentioned would best be considered Sparsely populated in that there are no residences populating the area. All you gotta do is look at the latest Federal Census and see that there is nobody populating the river. (maybe a houseboat or 2...) Bill Watson bill@part103.org -----Original Message----- From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave and Jean Matheny Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 6:21 PM To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Subject: UL: Re: Congested areas My view is: Let's just leave it alone. As soon as it became clear, in about 1983, that the FAA was disinclined to define "congested areas," it also became clear that this reluctance worked in our favor. While it may be obvious that lower Manhattan would have to be a "congested area," it is not at all necessary that, say, a suburb of Cleveland is also a "congested area." In case the value of that haziness is not obvious, the fact is that if one were charged with overflying a "congested area," one could always argue that it has never been defined just what "congested area" means -- not officially, anyway. Not in any courtroom that I've heard of. Back in the late 1980s, a local FAA official came to one of my ultralight club's meetings and was asked (big mistake) to define "congested area." He did. He defined a certain local river, the St. Croix, as a "congested area" on every Saturday and Sunday. Given that there are areas of the St. Croix where boats almost never go, and that even at its average level of busy-ness it's only about as congested as an acre of corn being worked by a tractor, this was a crazy rule, and one that we promptly forgot. But it shows what happens when you ask. There are lots of people who will say that the yellow areas on sectional charts are "congested areas." However, the FAA, as far as I know, has never said that. The agency has had 20-plus years to define the term and has not. That alone should tell you something. My advice: Leave it. If you force the FAA to define "congested area," you won't like their definition. Guaranteed. --Dave Matheny I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time it is. I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be overcome) 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to make) Thanks in advance, Bill Watson Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "FLY-UL" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 'd3Return-Path: Received: from n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.38]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA41Ggo004866 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:01:17 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=Qb/qhZLjdHzjhzc1n3n08r+mBvXFN912xHPvgLyah0NGWhq3fi1EX8m47Ce5ZuhKkrgZ4CqlOdOwyw40LswbPNLUH/yBFw4OP8dAwKnfYuyxQD0zTe3OaIcKjkGdMcXX; Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 04:01:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.61] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 04:01:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: thepritchetts@netzero.net X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92987 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 04:01:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 04:01:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.61) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 04:01:13 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n8.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 04:00:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 04:00:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.70] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 04:00:49 -0000 To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 12.96.64.135 From: "mrbrucepritchett" X-Yahoo-Profile: mrbrucepritchett Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:00:46 -0000 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: RO X-UID: 34085 Content-Length: 6404 X-Keywords: <5W? `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @ T ( )@?` _5BEF0@0@ 0?oef @ `!"#$%' ()@*`+,-.6 V٥H|4J٠RњeeRe: PPC Congested AreasSSMTP:THEPRITCHETTS@NETZERO.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTmrbrucepritchettSMTPthepritchetts@netzero.netmrbrucepritchett+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPthepritchetts@netzero.netPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com$ef00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillCOMMONSENSEWOULDDICTATETHATANYRULEORLAWBESUFFICIENTLYEXPLICITTOALLOWITTOBEREASONABLYFOLLOWEDTHEDEFINsentto-313105-166288-1131595274-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511101507191116253039$2e34085Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.commrbrucepritchettpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Message Posterthepritchetts@netzero.netgroups-email216.155.201.61SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340851116253039$2e340851:12:0:012.96.64.135 34085powerchutes@yahoogroups.com9 DT\d}'7nr #'@SWko3;]E0<J|4<HD 7>x=l|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkC O7F `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    `@K9 ( )@?AQ ` _5BEF0@0@ 0?Nef @ `!"#$%'`()*+,-. /@5 9@@xKO'+ۓi@i@UL: RE: Congested Areas5hcSMTP:GARYO@BAK.RR.COM+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTGary OrpeSMTPgaryo@bak.rr.comGary Orpe+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com-FLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPgaryo@bak.rr.comRE: Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com:~00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillNAWMIKEYOUGOTITALLWRONGTHEYSHOULDRESTRICTTHEMALLTOASAFEPLACETHERESHOULDBENATIONALAND/ORSTATERUNPPGPA<001201c5e5a7$670ef5e0$6401a8c0@garys><6.0.0.22.1.20051109145551.06851850@pop.hotpop.com>sentto-371046-67931-1131593597-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511100338451116253039$2e34081Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comgaryo263FLY-UL@yahoogroups.comMicrosoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627garyo@bak.rr.comgroups-email66.75.162.134Symantec AntiVirus Scan EngineProduced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340811116253039$2e340811:12:0:0 340811116253039 34082FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; \lt|&/fj 15IMa"D,t >k/U]J bMsNaw Mike. You got it all wrong. They should restrict them all to a safe place. There should be National and/or State run PPG parks set aside for them. Sort of like they do with the RV'ers out there. That would surely take care of all that. Would have no trouble finding out where they all are either, if one wanted to fly with a friend. Every day would be a fly-in. Just think of the benefits to the public with that one. This could be just the beginning of a new era. What you think? Ps; Of course, if there were a lot of them out there, I guess that would then be a congested area too. How many is a lot? Thanks Bill? Great question. Gary O. The dumb and aging one... 661 746-4780 fax ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> -----Original Message----- From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Huckle Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 2:56 PM To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Subject: UL: Congested Areas > From: "Bill Watson" > >I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a >congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic >is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt >this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had >available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? >is for his buddy. > >The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the >time it is. I think they're screwing up the intent of the (vague) rule when they say that a street is a "congested area". The logical conclusion from that has to be that the craft cannot cross any streets which obviously should never have been the intention. The intention is to keep the PPG guy out of the suburbs and cities, so he is not flying over homes and businesses, etc, it being desired that he not make a pest of himself, and that he not create a danger to others. Then, when crossing streets, he needs to do so at a very safe and considerate height. The theory must be that if he is forced to land, there should be a very high likelihood he could land on either side of the street far from the street, and not right in the street. However, any PPG'er generating complaints, probably needs to be prosecuted, and he probably is flying as either a pest or as a danger to others. Worse, such activities just might result in clarifications to a vague rule, and the clarification might be, "freeways are congested areas, therefore ultralights can never cross a freeway!" And that, would really be crap! It could be very important to get these PPG guys the hell away from the freeway (eg 1000' above, and just a quick flyover), and to not make an issue of the freeways. Whatever they are doing to generate complaints, .... twould be better if they'd stop doing it. Mike Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ PSjXa %LZFuUDHA rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cPs d36P aMike. Y` go@i@@% w`ngpTh ey sh`ldR  stc@tem3to00afe Qca 6b"pti @0nd/S uPPG } k 0 ]r!d BpS pof lA 2 d  @ 2V' ` # #@pcspely&Ea'~c "p'Q *pWcv"pn `W`% d g)Cw"C'A!d+e(a,'` "pwp f*(D!P#pE-`r(a21m"a!d2- pJu 1 k'B(#1@.@t (p- (F*!11!d"j5t6bg .o,!-a,*y5?!d!dPs; O'`90)p"R!'3 C)W0I P8C*S&G4B>11+! opHo ?/= *5 Bl?l GD@qAa#R.= G0  OH%H(u#0:.8K`H 661 746-478Pfax!d~MNN> =V-PO:m#MAqJeP!dFa: FLY-UL@yaPo `ps. p[m :S/T3]>Belf!d>2D}k.!d`0SW 1@s30No-`309005Z:56$MFTST$Xe-jX\@[PCvD9_` OKR"F,#@Bs " aaA0 4B. 7@m .0@ 7FAAg ./*!CQGt)`!aC\0CEh .`Ta2U:dCkd p akE#$-A.2DY![ `1A ,h hm0p '!@Tj5 1pE2C\0n!At( 2!hR'a-PTfF'CQpp 'o)84C1@;1TQ S68-1G oX&-0E!bndyH%dJqE-"1py)1ccT(S+s0pT 50%6tqH+!dA05''"b.T(gqX6(yAQ)$./'! +&F*!!r!dE#"C\"H%J:+ CQc @ 2Ta8C6#8C(!0ipo/D!dr9/ (obpp`s2!E1@q2-C#DeGJE Pe$AP )R6*~rbE1Jcc`!d2.!dq#PJ~v1Aq c0@#.!U-rf+!О'`pW,$R!3Cqz "A<n0#.0b d6(!c`03S!"J9&$RQ0h,H A m5r&1B}!1qd0>"դ 's'SBEcr1!0uv!%Ls$q0J!dQ!0gaH+DR z{E.{`bfA #!eiJ7R}S%$'@qQE2,>s*#Pppb:mpl.@+#R64ucøԑZ5#0"P s+CW/%&"p;'! AO5i̥!"!dA?eeAep!߅i"3Spp1 C #FwQ3[@: dPZzA-`:!G 52q")u ࢘ *̦<S/d"a( .{d!dKapt3#@>ć *neH+WO1ءpG ^^4p-pS!dYS!G1T L5_HwO/PK_P}SրP~POGsAs -----Original Message----- From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Huckle Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 2:56 PM To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Subject: UL: Congested Areas > From: "Bill Watson" > >I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a >congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic >is a PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt >this was a congested area, since that was the only FAR they had >available to 'convict' a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? >is for his buddy. > >The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the >time it is. I think they're screwing up the intent of the (vague) rule when they say that a street is a "congested area". The logical conclusion from that has to be that the craft cannot cross any streets which obviously should never have been the intention. The intention is to keep the PPG guy out of the suburbs and cities, so he is not flying over homes and businesses, etc, it being desired that he not make a pest of himself, and that he not create a danger to others. Then, when crossing streets, he needs to do so at a very safe and considerate height. The theory must be that if he is forced to land, there should be a very high likelihood he could land on either side of the street far from the street, and not right in the street. However, any PPG'er generating complaints, probably needs to be prosecuted, and he probably is flying as either a pest or as a danger to others. Worse, such activities just might result in clarifications to a vague rule, and the clarification might be, "freeways are congested areas, therefore ultralights can never cross a freeway!" And that, would really be crap! It could be very important to get these PPG guys the hell away from the freeway (eg 1000' above, and just a quick flyover), and to not make an issue of the freeways. Whatever they are doing to generate complaints, .... twould be better if they'd stop doing it. Mike Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FLY-UL/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: FLY-UL-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ PkjXI hope you win. So the FAA just wanted the guy to ante up the 2200 and not cause them any trouble heh? Follow the money seems to be the rule. Who do I hold in contempt the most, the whuffo complainer or the FAA bureaucrats? Blue skies, David --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Watson" wrote: > > Is a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary one? IIRC, > the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute a congested > area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building was > occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, then the > same standard should be applied to the road. > > I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the bird's eye view) > said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. No other > witness could say otherwise. > > Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based upon a > subsequent video recording. > > There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when disproven. 103.9 > and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. > > The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have a hearing. > They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps such > standing would be 'as an expert'? > > The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide roads > planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't necessarily > mean heavily travelled. > > The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' decision > made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and disturbed traffic. > At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, the FAA > clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to match. > > I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might be > considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. > > As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness park area to > another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby and some > jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. > > Bill Watson > bill@p... > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of ghawkjr > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > > > If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about 4:30 in > the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane highway. > That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the area at > the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty congested. Also, > I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of cars that > passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was about > 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, but I > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was congested by > a reasonable definition. > > -- George > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" wrote: > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: Skyryder@m... > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > Files : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ }8rq LZFudO rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P -  IFLY-UL@yahoo# `ps.m, "Dave pd JeMat2h y" w`: T>"Eqy v: L ' jus@li@@ e.""A sa %ba c$r 0u@1983)1 FAA!' Td ' )0>o&+ng` s,"$&'k)6  @Vc*e Twk+1"(Qa f. W/`$$#@'p1b#`` )Cwn)Q/!`l 1 r+a3A"a,~-/qn"0% %`0  #@)B9y7 subpb1f&C$ `Q/q-7/. E%1')v@ P;B)Cz+83u)" 2/8)B T1,Q"4a',`C1rfly g=8"D5a%!*y*5EA@A)C1@80 H4QF?Bd):Y 'I k8w,5J"9X)3R)0HQ;Q' aph#@\b_&WA1WK]2";pizMFjF1pp[ 4`&5an'@Y,)r9H,Hbd~o8/YUQ quiD)T 0 `  T/`'pe )]2igh@,Xb 0m!p~pFa T0 0 kFb_Enu1 +z[y3}u T;{\]$=]zl`a`tFb "w0cE dy3lck4R+ (8r <)t`0)jusr/Qnkr'F1)11z+QwX,ῃA;Q `2U16#rP2#@.0@) g FbLc{Wv Received: from n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.40]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA47Uix005227 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:07:31 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? 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See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n7.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 04:06:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 04:06:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.85] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 04:06:33 -0000 To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.60 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 70.153.102.135 From: "dndfindley" X-Yahoo-Profile: dndfindley Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:06:30 -0000 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: RO X-Status: A X-UID: 34086 Content-Length: 7368 X-Keywords: ґTI|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com Jei4 zs `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @@F ( )@jS` ߍ5BEF0@0@ 0?oef @ `!"#$%' ()@*`+,-./ 6?MA!OnFZddRe: PPC Congested Areas{SMTP:DNDFINDLEY@BELLSOUTH.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTdndfindleySMTPdndfindley@bellsouth.netdndfindley+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPdndfindley@bellsouth.netPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillIHOPEYOUWINSOTHEFAAJUSTWANTEDTHEGUYTOANTEUPTHE2200ANDNOTCAUSETHEMANYTROUBLEHEH?FOLLOWTHEMONEYSEEMSTO<00e801c5e59d$c3b21020$09000032@bill>sentto-313105-166287-1131594294-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511101507111116253039$2e34083Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comdndfindleypowerchutes@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Message Posterdndfindley@bellsouth.netgroups-email66.94.237.40SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340831116253039$2e340831:12:0:070.153.102.135 340831116253039 34186powerchutes@yahoogroups.com: L\dl'1hl!9LPdh| ,4VxJ.:Fx 08FT 6fReturn-Path: Received: from n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.20]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA3isLU004250 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:44:55 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=lSmuE4Gzqa5HJGEXPVBMQeLSkEaIWJNLmNVPaFGPGoNuyX/wnbCIGDRgjEPurOLHUI4bt1NJABoRzDHNksLMeGnv6upFWGCIBSXLQPBvqCedDSCIt9x/jIj7Jj3EL7a7; Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:44:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.33] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:44:54 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: dndfindley@bellsouth.net X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76609 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 03:44:53 -0000 To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00e801c5e59d$c3b21020$09000032@bill> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.40 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 70.153.102.135 From: "dndfindley" X-Yahoo-Profile: dndfindley Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 03:44:51 -0000 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: RO X-IMAPbase: 1116253039 34186 X-UID: 34083 Content-Length: 5083 X-Keywords: nI hope you win. So the FAA just wanted the guy to ante up the 2200 and not cause them any trouble heh? Follow the money seems to be the rule. Who do I hold in contempt the most, the whuffo complainer or the FAA bureaucrats? Blue skies, David --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Watson" wrote: > > Is a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary one? IIRC, > the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute a congested > area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building was > occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, then the > same standard should be applied to the road. > > I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the bird's eye view) > said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. No other > witness could say otherwise. > > Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based upon a > subsequent video recording. > > There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when disproven. 103.9 > and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. > > The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have a hearing. > They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps such > standing would be 'as an expert'? > > The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide roads > planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't necessarily > mean heavily travelled. > > The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' decision > made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and disturbed traffic. > At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, the FAA > clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to match. > > I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might be > considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. > > As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness park area to > another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby and some > jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. > > Bill Watson > bill@p... > > -----Original Message----- > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of ghawkjr > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > > > If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about 4:30 in > the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane highway. > That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the area at > the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty congested. Also, > I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of cars that > passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was about > 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, but I > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was congested by > a reasonable definition. > > -- George > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" wrote: > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: Skyryder@m... > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > Files : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ R8rCommon sense would dictate that any rule or law be sufficiently explicit to allow it to be reasonably followed. The definition of "congested" has proven itself to be vague to the point where very reasonable people have very different interpretations of the term. By using vague and subjective terms, each flier is left to determine his or her own reasonable interpretation of what congested means. The vagueness also allows different FAA personnel to interpret the term differently. Thus, you have fliers with no clear direction of what "congested" means being policed by FAA representatives who also do not have the term defined for them. And out of this, fining people for their differing reasonable definitions of the term is fair? I would base my defense on the vagueness of the rule, a reasonable interpretation of it, and a presentation of how the road definitely conforms to that reasonable definition of congested. --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "dndfindley" wrote: > > I hope you win. So the FAA just wanted the guy to ante up the 2200 > and not cause them any trouble heh? Follow the money seems to be > the rule. Who do I hold in contempt the most, the whuffo complainer > or the FAA bureaucrats? Blue skies, > David > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Watson" > wrote: > > > > Is a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary > one? IIRC, > > the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute a > congested > > area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building > was > > occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, > then the > > same standard should be applied to the road. > > > > I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the bird's > eye view) > > said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. > No other > > witness could say otherwise. > > > > Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based > upon a > > subsequent video recording. > > > > There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when > disproven. 103.9 > > and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. > > > > The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have a > hearing. > > They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps > such > > standing would be 'as an expert'? > > > > The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide > roads > > planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't > necessarily > > mean heavily travelled. > > > > The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' > decision > > made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and disturbed > traffic. > > At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, the > FAA > > clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to > match. > > > > I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might be > > considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. > > > > As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness > park area to > > another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby and > some > > jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. > > > > Bill Watson > > bill@p... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of ghawkjr > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about > 4:30 in > > the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane > highway. > > That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the > area at > > the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty > congested. Also, > > I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of > cars that > > passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was > about > > 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, > but I > > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was > congested by > > a reasonable definition. > > > > -- George > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" > wrote: > > > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > Files : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ^&/ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@}_ `    `@& ( )@{c1Y` 59BEFf@ 0@0@ 0?oe@f` !#$% '`()*+,-. /@<@ˁ\D])y r:Re: UL: Re: Congested areasvqSMTP:PRDMR@LOU-TELECOM.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTjerry PridemoreSMTPprdmr@lou-telecom.netjerry Pridemore+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPprdmr@lou-telecom.netUL: Re: Congested areasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comx00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillIAMBETTINGTHEREISALOTMORETOTHISSTORYTHANTHEPILOTISMAKINGKNOWNTHEREALWAYSSEEMSTOBESOMETHINGLEFTOUTTHA<4374EABD.6070706@lou-telecom.net>sentto-371046-67966-1131735752-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511111907141116253039$2e34504Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comprdmreFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comprdmr@lou-telecom.netgroups-email63.168.37.11en-us, enSpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e345041116253039$2e345041:12:0:0 345041116253039 34504FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com; dt|BQ,0E\`tx  #+Mo'R".7i!)4 r4q-E)#=?E_SL^=CKL @0`6L6 6 6PPGvsFAAIPF.Note <DLZvp?2QReturn-Path: Received: from n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.42]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAA5Txrx008694 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:30:00 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=Sz+VKzUxs377iT2uvgP0XSX3bL1REuxeb86z7KGhPeUwkZuiBfd20eUI0sAtJNRpHUSFZhSGiK1bugJ1FTJTS60/VVa6ZxUxUXpJkMejLqWkBtXeoIqDQbMlR8b+rTVw; Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 05:29:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.193] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 05:29:58 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bill@part103.org X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8635 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 05:29:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 05:29:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helmethouse.com) (71.5.47.69) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 05:29:54 -0000 Received: from helmethouse.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jAA5TquE008690 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:29:53 -0800 To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Message-Id: <20051110051626.M16532@part103.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Open WebMail 2.51 20050512 X-OriginatingIP: 66.214.83.124 (bill) X-Originating-IP: 71.5.47.69 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Bill" X-Yahoo-Profile: ultraliteteacher Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:29:52 -0800 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: RO X-UID: 34089 Content-Length: 9330 X-Keywords: Q &PЫl|@`|0024   0  $ 000  09( 9, @:1 gg ߀SMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COM+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.com ;QUkvp zL @0`6M6 6 6PPGvsFAAIPF.Note <DLZb=%-ߜ15@m*u4RCommon sense would dictate that any rule or law be sufficiently explicit to allow it to be reasonably followed. The definition of "congested" has proven itself to be vague to the point where very reasonable people have very different interpretations of the term. By using vague and subjective terms, each flier is left to determine his or her own reasonable interpretation of what congested means. The vagueness also allows different FAA personnel to interpret the term differently. Thus, you have fliers with no clear direction of what "congested" means being policed by FAA representatives who also do not have the term defined for them. And out of this, fining people for their differing reasonable definitions of the term is fair? I would base my defense on the vagueness of the rule, a reasonable interpretation of it, and a presentation of how the road definitely conforms to that reasonable definition of congested. --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "dndfindley" wrote: > > I hope you win. So the FAA just wanted the guy to ante up the 2200 > and not cause them any trouble heh? Follow the money seems to be > the rule. Who do I hold in contempt the most, the whuffo complainer > or the FAA bureaucrats? Blue skies, > David > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Watson" > wrote: > > > > Is a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary > one? IIRC, > > the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute a > congested > > area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building > was > > occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, > then the > > same standard should be applied to the road. > > > > I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the bird's > eye view) > > said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. > No other > > witness could say otherwise. > > > > Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based > upon a > > subsequent video recording. > > > > There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when > disproven. 103.9 > > and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. > > > > The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have a > hearing. > > They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps > such > > standing would be 'as an expert'? > > > > The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide > roads > > planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't > necessarily > > mean heavily travelled. > > > > The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' > decision > > made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and disturbed > traffic. > > At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, the > FAA > > clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to > match. > > > > I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might be > > considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. > > > > As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness > park area to > > another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby and > some > > jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. > > > > Bill Watson > > bill@p... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of ghawkjr > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at about > 4:30 in > > the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six-lane > highway. > > That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of the > area at > > the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty > congested. Also, > > I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of > cars that > > passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it was > about > > 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite accurate, > but I > > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was > congested by > > a reasonable definition. > > > > -- George > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" > wrote: > > > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > Files : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ &/2 LZFu rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cPs d36P !m`e w`pld d  t@py r/ `bsu 0l O P a@tol! as  "" . Th !i1! of "ngcd"  p`v "al%"xvag P!po @w$p ( #(eo P')  )q)!)& `% %(,m$1 Bu&(p bj%+.2s, ##!q!.2  h2)apw*i,-)P% q.w$b(#3 @#0" ,(FAA+ 3  !,( .2, $3/010y?`+t1  n!cP   06 6s%7c/R(!71b: -a-B'?Ah!9A d!?@+-$71(.bA0`@-10$/a +G@P,/R*i$-1 f pr? Ib# m,s1(8-210a4 5_"aSA0S`DX6E@Roa$' %G1(tL?5%.OJr-]0 I($rGH@yaE@o[ `p7m10"Vd0$dPy&<_@b.a>A`: >b%]`WA+k>Sn$1S(:j/0)1p7"((@!,/ p<)2Ab/FRca/0F=Nt^*$ph?$@F#(!`QHPYbR$1WEAF!c 6m1j&@10()P 1E_! SbH:sbp#r`sjQB APk1!b D+iuvwxzby{|x!yo}~]?^O_QB Ws1 & BbAeG":ܒکPŸq= E"UBaeQg/2x 0mQ6d+&Af p4as!8bI90t͢B3Zf[uPfddxY؟_q_dPG@![GtJohKGjs Jrjzk@0ω؊ZZ`6q15ԙJe4dm?ze4!O"_:27#$o%s''E'(i dڿQ沪pua@8ĿD0A-}/ijkwyn?kastuvàAvz{/|?eD@p3$h_)_Р?1@o\Uw>!iJ-oEpǡLqw prUkyry@ЀJRU`tp://`E_/Y}L@ ՎbРǠw.Y&sentto-313105-166290-1131595649-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511101507211116253039$2e34086Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comdndfindleypowerchutes@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Message Posterdndfindley@bellsouth.netgroups-email216.155.201.60SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340861116253039$2e340861:12:0:070.153.102.135 34086Apowerchutes@yahoogroups.com: L\dl'1hl!9LPdh| ,4Vx> ".<n&.<: / htvnUsing your logic or variations thereof a good lawyer could easily win this case. Unfortunately it will probably cost more than the 2200 fine and that is maybe what the FAA is banking on. If the person has the money I think it would be worth it to beat the FAA. Blue skies, David --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "mrbrucepritchett" wrote: > > Common sense would dictate that any rule or law be sufficiently > explicit to allow it to be reasonably followed. The definition > of "congested" has proven itself to be vague to the point where very > reasonable people have very different interpretations of the term. > By using vague and subjective terms, each flier is left to determine > his or her own reasonable interpretation of what congested means. > The vagueness also allows different FAA personnel to interpret the > term differently. Thus, you have fliers with no clear direction of > what "congested" means being policed by FAA representatives who also > do not have the term defined for them. And out of this, fining > people for their differing reasonable definitions of the term is > fair? > > I would base my defense on the vagueness of the rule, a reasonable > interpretation of it, and a presentation of how the road definitely > conforms to that reasonable definition of congested. > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "dndfindley" > wrote: > > > > I hope you win. So the FAA just wanted the guy to ante up the > 2200 > > and not cause them any trouble heh? Follow the money seems to be > > the rule. Who do I hold in contempt the most, the whuffo > complainer > > or the FAA bureaucrats? Blue skies, > > > David > > > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Watson" > > > wrote: > > > > > > Is a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary > > one? IIRC, > > > the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute > a > > congested > > > area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building > > was > > > occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, > > then the > > > same standard should be applied to the road. > > > > > > I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the > bird's > > eye view) > > > said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. > > No other > > > witness could say otherwise. > > > > > > Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based > > upon a > > > subsequent video recording. > > > > > > There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when > > disproven. 103.9 > > > and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. > > > > > > The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have > a > > hearing. > > > They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps > > such > > > standing would be 'as an expert'? > > > > > > The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide > > roads > > > planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't > > necessarily > > > mean heavily travelled. > > > > > > The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' > > decision > > > made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and > disturbed > > traffic. > > > At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, > the > > FAA > > > clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to > > match. > > > > > > I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might > be > > > considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. > > > > > > As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness > > park area to > > > another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby > and > > some > > > jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. > > > > > > Bill Watson > > > bill@p... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of ghawkjr > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at > about > > 4:30 in > > > the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six- lane > > highway. > > > That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of > the > > area at > > > the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty > > congested. Also, > > > I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of > > cars that > > > passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it > was > > about > > > 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite > accurate, > > but I > > > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was > > congested by > > > a reasonable definition. > > > > > > -- George > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > > Files : > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 9dkReturn-Path: Received: from n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.44]) by helmethouse.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jAAEUqOn026628 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:32:05 -0800 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com; b=Ys8R527MshER+FMTvE6rNwpBFT8t4DuIzeezss7MeGDDYAd8/mZvdHy9LrQYLCW/z/scSq/QMjeJA6F1cpbWh84XwzUJabxilvTy4j2TY95ZWw8kjAwRO2ckfB2XBSmp; Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 14:30:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.35] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 14:30:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: thepritchetts@netzero.net X-Apparently-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64900 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2005 14:30:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2005 14:30:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2005 14:30:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 14:30:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2005 14:30:28 -0000 To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051110051626.M16532@part103.org> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.39 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 209.131.205.50 From: "mrbrucepritchett" X-Yahoo-Profile: mrbrucepritchett Sender: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com; contact powerchutes-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list powerchutes@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:30:27 -0000 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas Reply-To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Status: O X-UID: 34177 Content-Length: 10859 X-Keywords: F t1 That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite > > > accurate, > > > > but I > > > > > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was > > > > congested by > > > > > a reasonable definition. > > > > > > > > > > -- George > > > > > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > > > > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > > > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > > > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > > > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > > > > Files : > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > Files : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------- End of Original Message ------- > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ S$ ;?_@yhܟI(4<ߚ@D@=h:?)r9Using your logic or variations thereof a good lawyer could easily win this case. Unfortunately it will probably cost more than the 2200 fine and that is maybe what the FAA is banking on. If the person has the money I think it would be worth it to beat the FAA. Blue skies, David --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "mrbrucepritchett" wrote: > > Common sense would dictate that any rule or law be sufficiently > explicit to allow it to be reasonably followed. The definition > of "congested" has proven itself to be vague to the point where very > reasonable people have very different interpretations of the term. > By using vague and subjective terms, each flier is left to determine > his or her own reasonable interpretation of what congested means. > The vagueness also allows different FAA personnel to interpret the > term differently. Thus, you have fliers with no clear direction of > what "congested" means being policed by FAA representatives who also > do not have the term defined for them. And out of this, fining > people for their differing reasonable definitions of the term is > fair? > > I would base my defense on the vagueness of the rule, a reasonable > interpretation of it, and a presentation of how the road definitely > conforms to that reasonable definition of congested. > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "dndfindley" > wrote: > > > > I hope you win. So the FAA just wanted the guy to ante up the > 2200 > > and not cause them any trouble heh? Follow the money seems to be > > the rule. Who do I hold in contempt the most, the whuffo > complainer > > or the FAA bureaucrats? Blue skies, > > > David > > > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Watson" > > > wrote: > > > > > > Is a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary > > one? IIRC, > > > the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not constitute > a > > congested > > > area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the building > > was > > > occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining factor, > > then the > > > same standard should be applied to the road. > > > > > > I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the > bird's > > eye view) > > > said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed it. > > No other > > > witness could say otherwise. > > > > > > Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based > > upon a > > > subsequent video recording. > > > > > > There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when > > disproven. 103.9 > > > and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. > > > > > > The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even have > a > > hearing. > > > They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. Perhaps > > such > > > standing would be 'as an expert'? > > > > > > The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide > > roads > > > planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road doesn't > > necessarily > > > mean heavily travelled. > > > > > > The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case law' > > decision > > > made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and > disturbed > > traffic. > > > At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, > the > > FAA > > > clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to > > match. > > > > > > I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling might > be > > > considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. > > > > > > As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one wilderness > > park area to > > > another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby > and > > some > > > jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. > > > > > > Bill Watson > > > bill@p... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of ghawkjr > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at > about > > 4:30 in > > > the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six- lane > > highway. > > > That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of > the > > area at > > > the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty > > congested. Also, > > > I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of > > cars that > > > passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it > was > > about > > > 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite > accurate, > > but I > > > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was > > congested by > > > a reasonable definition. > > > > > > -- George > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes > > > Brian Lee: Skyryder@m... > > > Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com > > > Files : > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: Skyryder@mt.net URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes Brian Lee: Skyryder@mt.net Web Page: http://www.powerchutes.com Files : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/files/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/powerchutes/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ o\k\s"LZFuXƔb rcpg1252CtexA PV?U%Qch set2%3F0,3 ;05" `cP3 d36P Ung ya jg v 0t&i  theof a gopawyulealy  0 e. Mn unpe i@l p`b s@` o!2Pf $p%@!4yb$w&%RFAA'$nk "AVI@%Xps $&` I!(/#C S'h#Bto/,'"A!B A s (,!Davi0o123Z!3_5674_:;)ppowus@yahG `ps.mA/"mrbreO##P t"!<AG?)@CP>#p`:!>D!m+A/0 ,Ed &p Al$,su 0 C PHa-S@-FG  $JB "AT%a #PH1" dAл*#v #Al)J0g/-q%R> #a!OPrHK'Q P$OP RbF  QaQQ# u1%XUm.gCB uPd&H bjTaWR/ &0I!GP-b!WR&RDv!wS)UM'N7$ WLPc&`@*J$ T(B*T&` -qU%ICWRT LSXp/QT4Z -n-cGP F  YMG1Dv'N*a#,>I`b (B UEaVOPiA?!cDvd-i@TC%RfL`"WA&`@V/L!DvSrjPTS)LVgf!Dvf pr?DvDv+,U"$TEs*%RbhVG2/`S)Dv_#A~&`n_?~Coa[L#DvN1"ZPP&w__N7.z>?@d&&AdGPyA<@bCSkwC Dg{b?*PhS!q"ASP(BjXp#ap`%RP JUX`pf %8&qR"Xpq;gFt@Sh?"PFK*sP!'8~F"AWoq! q!N1m1+$/%R'H1p@q Sw8s(3bp rpsQ.z0Cߩw﮿ϰ߬/>׉@B#W AC/ֶٺ7N崁OwgȐ@ MbSF:͔[` o:Vo] O!B0@NO90kjSd!V@WPb$p@m&@09~Q`5:51#MY V_] L@a@R#CPA"R/f/{a{jaM|BSq P2r aA1wbs84:3pȐ'@!qC@vtўȳ3vbxU5190$-AA|ʒ}90!DvKc},_Bԃ3s^!<1t*{nDwU1}eKBɁ_"xrk@pcQb|FE^/Bєlr0t呔q"hF6 B`pБqzA)bIPbʁCᣰȦdZI{.p"RS(G?󡛯S8JohPKПski Jrjzk@| Р6$Ȑ1s(x lSTVWXZ[[P/]^:27`=abLcEde.?rP!p8DɄ`"-O]/Z[ڡ?O^A`Aɏ߼ğW2s50#k7ap©_/?l#F}ƤԀԯտЃU:|Fi&@{ -0:Lk%wIr5ckyry;!@@R p>R#P9@tpx://ŠsW$/Ok QL{]70b#wP.bFIHogKU/.+1/+] Y!#ZX'F_ Iz ߢOo?R颴<*B 6k~yG7"|2,b%g`% Bd6"6u/~p!"| 9Y Ia2,ܒc"#i$Go/n m=}4 ``smu$Unfortunately, there is no $$ for a lawyer. During our talk, we both were hoping that having watched a lot of 'Law and Order' episodes we will do just fine. I'm even planning to stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before for good measure. The way I figure it, I will be spending a day after battling 40 miles of the nation's worst traffic (101/405) in the hope I can do the UL community some good. The pilot will be spening his day hoping he will not be skewered. Our starting point sucks real bad and can only improve, so there's not much added risk involved. Please keep these thoughts coming, as precedent has been set by the 1st pilot losing his case. I am hoping that I will be able to state a better case than his non-aviation lawyer did. Does anybody know the general rules for being an 'expert witness'? Best guess is that will be my title. Great - Ex-Spurt - has been-drip under pressure. =)~ Does anybody know where to find FAA 'case law'? By the way, according to the FAA judge/etc we are all supposed to know all of it - ignorance of the law is no excuse. Bill Watson bill@part103.org ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "dndfindley" To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:06:30 -0000 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > Using your logic or variations thereof a good lawyer could easily > win this case. Unfortunately it will probably cost more than the > 2200 fine and that is maybe what the FAA is banking on. If the > person has the money I think it would be worth it to beat the FAA. > Blue skies, > David > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "mrbrucepritchett" > wrote: > > > > Common sense would dictate that any rule or law be sufficiently > > explicit to allow it to be reasonably followed. The definition > > of "congested" has proven itself to be vague to the point where > very > > reasonable people have very different interpretations of the > term. > > By using vague and subjective terms, each flier is left to > determine > > his or her own reasonable interpretation of what congested means. > > The vagueness also allows different FAA personnel to interpret the > > term differently. Thus, you have fliers with no clear direction > of > > what "congested" means being policed by FAA representatives who > also > > do not have the term defined for them. And out of this, fining > > people for their differing reasonable definitions of the term is > > fair? > > > > I would base my defense on the vagueness of the rule, a reasonable > > interpretation of it, and a presentation of how the road > definitely > > conforms to that reasonable definition of congested. > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "dndfindley" > > wrote: > > > > > > I hope you win. So the FAA just wanted the guy to ante up the > > 2200 > > > and not cause them any trouble heh? Follow the money seems to > be > > > the rule. Who do I hold in contempt the most, the whuffo > > complainer > > > or the FAA bureaucrats? Blue skies, > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Watson" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Is a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary > > > one? IIRC, > > > > the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not > constitute > > a > > > congested > > > > area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the > building > > > was > > > > occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining > factor, > > > then the > > > > same standard should be applied to the road. > > > > > > > > I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the > > bird's > > > eye view) > > > > said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed > it. > > > No other > > > > witness could say otherwise. > > > > > > > > Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based > > > upon a > > > > subsequent video recording. > > > > > > > > There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when > > > disproven. 103.9 > > > > and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. > > > > > > > > The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even > have > > a > > > hearing. > > > > They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. > Perhaps > > > such > > > > standing would be 'as an expert'? > > > > > > > > The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide > > > roads > > > > planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road > doesn't > > > necessarily > > > > mean heavily travelled. > > > > > > > > The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case > law' > > > decision > > > > made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and > > disturbed > > > traffic. > > > > At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, > > the > > > FAA > > > > clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to > > > match. > > > > > > > > I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling > might > > be > > > > considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. > > > > > > > > As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one > wilderness > > > park area to > > > > another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby > > and > > > some > > > > jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. > > > > > > > > Bill Watson > > > > bill@p... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of ghawkjr > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at > > about > > > 4:30 in > > > > the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six- > lane > > > highway. > > > > That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of > > the > > > area at > > > > the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty > > > congested. Also, > > > > I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of > > > cars that > > > > passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it > > was > > > about > > > > 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite > > accurate, > > > but I > > > > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was > > > congested by > > > > a reasonable definition. > > > > > > > > -- George > > > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > > > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > > > U뜬Unfortunately, there is no $$ for a lawyer. During our talk, we both were hoping that having watched a lot of 'Law and Order' episodes we will do just fine. I'm even planning to stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before for good measure. The way I figure it, I will be spending a day after battling 40 miles of the nation's worst traffic (101/405) in the hope I can do the UL community some good. The pilot will be spening his day hoping he will not be skewered. Our starting point sucks real bad and can only improve, so there's not much added risk involved. Please keep these thoughts coming, as precedent has been set by the 1st pilot losing his case. I am hoping that I will be able to state a better case than his non-aviation lawyer did. Does anybody know the general rules for being an 'expert witness'? Best guess is that will be my title. Great - Ex-Spurt - has been-drip under pressure. =)~ Does anybody know where to find FAA 'case law'? By the way, according to the FAA judge/etc we are all supposed to know all of it - ignorance of the law is no excuse. Bill Watson bill@part103.org ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "dndfindley" To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:06:30 -0000 Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > Using your logic or variations thereof a good lawyer could easily > win this case. Unfortunately it will probably cost more than the > 2200 fine and that is maybe what the FAA is banking on. If the > person has the money I think it would be worth it to beat the FAA. > Blue skies, > David > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "mrbrucepritchett" > wrote: > > > > Common sense would dictate that any rule or law be sufficiently > > explicit to allow it to be reasonably followed. The definition > > of "congested" has proven itself to be vague to the point where > very > > reasonable people have very different interpretations of the > term. > > By using vague and subjective terms, each flier is left to > determine > > his or her own reasonable interpretation of what congested means. > > The vagueness also allows different FAA personnel to interpret the > > term differently. Thus, you have fliers with no clear direction > of > > what "congested" means being policed by FAA representatives who > also > > do not have the term defined for them. And out of this, fining > > people for their differing reasonable definitions of the term is > > fair? > > > > I would base my defense on the vagueness of the rule, a reasonable > > interpretation of it, and a presentation of how the road > definitely > > conforms to that reasonable definition of congested. > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "dndfindley" > > wrote: > > > > > > I hope you win. So the FAA just wanted the guy to ante up the > > 2200 > > > and not cause them any trouble heh? Follow the money seems to > be > > > the rule. Who do I hold in contempt the most, the whuffo > > complainer > > > or the FAA bureaucrats? Blue skies, > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Watson" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Is a street a permanent congested area, or perhaps a temporary > > > one? IIRC, > > > > the FAA has said that flying over buildings does not > constitute > > a > > > congested > > > > area since the pilot could not reasonably decide if the > building > > > was > > > > occupied or not. If occupancy were to be the determining > factor, > > > then the > > > > same standard should be applied to the road. > > > > > > > > I just talked to the 2nd pilot in question and he (with the > > bird's > > > eye view) > > > > said that the road was not occupied at the moment he crossed > it. > > > No other > > > > witness could say otherwise. > > > > > > > > Also said was that the road was occupied 25% of the time based > > > upon a > > > > subsequent video recording. > > > > > > > > There were numerous other charges filed, but dropped when > > > disproven. 103.9 > > > > and 103.15 are the only ones still standing. > > > > > > > > The FAA wanted this pilot to simply pay $2200 and not even > have > > a > > > hearing. > > > > They have told him he has no standing in the courtroom. > Perhaps > > > such > > > > standing would be 'as an expert'? > > > > > > > > The more recently built parts of that area of CA have big wide > > > roads > > > > planning for 20-50 years from now. The width of the road > doesn't > > > necessarily > > > > mean heavily travelled. > > > > > > > > The street being congested ruling was based upon a GA 'case > law' > > > decision > > > > made in '83 when a PPSEL flew along a freeway, low, and > > disturbed > > > traffic. > > > > At the time, 91.119c (500') didn't say 'vehicles'. Since then, > > the > > > FAA > > > > clarified 91.119c and apparently chose not to update 103.15 to > > > match. > > > > > > > > I hope to help this guy win, since the prior guy's ruling > might > > be > > > > considered precedent setting. That would be a tragedy. > > > > > > > > As far as where this guy was flying, it was from one > wilderness > > > park area to > > > > another crossing the infamous road. The park has houses nearby > > and > > > some > > > > jealous whuffo called the Sheriff. > > > > > > > > Bill Watson > > > > bill@p... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of ghawkjr > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:51 PM > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > If I recall my reading of the documents correctly, it was at > > about > > > 4:30 in > > > > the afternoon in California, in a place that requires a six- > lane > > > highway. > > > > That's probably enough said there, but there were some pics of > > the > > > area at > > > > the same time on a subsequent day that made it seem pretty > > > congested. Also, > > > > I think there was testimony that someone counted the number of > > > cars that > > > > passed in a minute at that time on another day, and I think it > > was > > > about > > > > 100. That's just what I recall, so it may not be quite > > accurate, > > > but I > > > > believe they were able to convince the judge that the road was > > > congested by > > > > a reasonable definition. > > > > > > > > -- George > > > > > > > > --- In powerchutes@yahoogroups.com, "John Kosowski Jr" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Was the 6 line highway congested at the time? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com]On > > > > > Behalf Of Bill Watson > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:27 PM > > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as Nov 28, but could get delayed. -Bill > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:powerchutes@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of John Kosowski Jr > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:25 AM > > > > > To: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: RE: PPC Congested Areas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When does this show take place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: powerchutes@yahoogroups.com > > > > Unsubscribe: powerchutes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > List owner: Skyryder@m... > > > > U--- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "Dave and Jean Matheny" wrote: > > My view is: Let's just leave it alone. > > As soon as it became clear, in about 1983, that the FAA was disinclined to > define "congested areas," it also became clear that this reluctance worked > in our favor. While it may be obvious that lower Manhattan would have to be > a "congested area," it is not at all necessary that, say, a suburb of > Cleveland is also a "congested area." > > In case the value of that haziness is not obvious, the fact is that if one > were charged with overflying a "congested area," one could always argue that > it has never been defined just what "congested area" means -- not > officially, anyway. Not in any courtroom that I've heard of. In the long run it's probably better to make the exact determination on an individual basis for each case. An educated responsible person such as a judge. > There are lots of people who will say that the yellow areas on sectional > charts are "congested areas." However, the FAA, as far as I know, has never > said that. In the world of cartography such areas are sometines defined as an "urbanized area". For our purposes we shouldn't forget that a congested areas does not actually require the presence of people or vehicles. A judge might consider an empty shopping center parking lot with numerous light poles and parking bumpers as a congested area. A railroad switching yard with endless tracks and powerlines (no trains at the moment). I don't think we can fly through town instead of around it by following the 4 lane interstate highway and claim we will land on the wide shoulder if the engine quits. Missing any powerlines or bridges of course. An empty golf course you might get way with, but I fly around them anyway if under about 1500AGL. --Dan Grunloh > > The agency has had 20-plus years to define the term and has not. That alone > should tell you something. > > My advice: Leave it. If you force the FAA to define "congested area," you > won't like their definition. Guaranteed. > > --Dave Matheny > > > I may be able to put my .02 into the FAA regarding what constitutes a > congested area. The stage is a FAA hearing room with a judge. The topic is a > PPG having flown over a 6 lane street. A FAA judge earlier felt this was a > congested area, since that was the only FAR they had available to 'convict' > a PPG'er that generated complaints. This trial? is for his buddy. > > The 6 lane street is not always occupied with cars, perhaps 50% of the time > it is. > > I'd like all the minds on this list to tell me two things: > 1) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the FAA's side (obsticles to be > overcome) > 2) Specific thoughts/anecdotes that support the pilot's side (points to > make) > > Thanks in advance, > Bill Watson > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Need help? Contact: fly-ul-owner@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ݈ , `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @(8 ( )@?'6 ` _5BEF0@0@ 0?oef @ `!"#$%' ()@*`+,-.6PҬ^INDbNХA ХA UL: Re: Congested areasF SMTP:DGRUNLOH@ILLICOM.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTDan GrunlohSMTPdgrunloh@illicom.netDan Grunloh+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combillPK+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPdgrunloh@illicom.netRe: Congested areasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comSMTP:FLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comL 00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill---INFLY-UL@YAHOOGROUPSCOM,"DAVEANDJEANMATHENY"<014601c5e59d$5a68c910$da940443@VALUEDB4B48255>sentto-371046-67938-1131636033-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511101522291116253039$2e34192Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comdangrunlohFLY-UL@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Message Posterdgrunloh@illicom.netgroups-email216.155.201.61SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e341921116253039$2e341921:12:0:0204.42.17.47 34192FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com9 DT\d}#Z^)-AEY<[}9hm Cdp?x_|@ve` |@`|   77 7gg%%@DavidSid.vcf Z`y: 7R] `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `    @@o ( )@?ӈ` _59BEF0@0@ 0?oe f@` !"#$% '@()`*+,-. ;v+txK={ eeRe: PPC Congested AreasaƷSMTP:BILL@PART103.ORG+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTBillSMTPbill@part103.orgBill+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPbill@part103.orgPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com|&˷00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillUNFORTUNATELY,THEREISNO$$FORALAWYERDURINGOURTALK,WEBOTHWEREHOPINGTHATHAVINGWATCHEDALOTOFLAWANDORDERE<20051110051626.M16532@part103.org> sentto-313105-166296-1131600597-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511101507301116253039$2e34089Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.comultraliteteacherpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comOpen WebMail 2.51 20050512bill@part103.orggroups-email71.5.47.69SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.466.214.83.124 (bill)POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e340891116253039$2e340891:12:0:0 34089powerchutes@yahoogroups.com: L\dlLP(,@DX2T'W(8DN&LTR ~ `IPM.Note@79@; ?@@`ABCDOP Q@R`depuvw x@} `     @~ ( )@d7` ߏ5BEF0@0@ 0?oef @ `!"#$%' ()@*`+,-.6H.QIgffjfeeRe: PPC Congested Areas&KSMTP:THEPRITCHETTS@NETZERO.NET+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill+nTmrbrucepritchettSMTPthepritchetts@netzero.netmrbrucepritchett+nTbillSMTPbill@helmethouse.combill\U+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com powerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTP:BILL@HELMETHOUSE.COMSMTPthepritchetts@netzero.netPPC Congested AreasSMTPbill@helmethouse.comSMTPbill@helmethouse.com+nTpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.compowerchutes@yahoogroups.comSMTP:POWERCHUTES@YAHOOGROUPS.COMSMTPpowerchutes@yahoogroups.com00000014bill@helmethouse.comBill00000014bill@helmethouse.comBillISNTTHERESOMETHINGINLAWPERTAININGTOA"REASONABLEMAN"TEST?INOTHERWORDS,LAWSSHOULDBEWRITTENINSUCHAWAYTH<20051110051626.M16532@part103.org>sentto-313105-166305-1131633042-bill=part103.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com&b200511101510271116253039$2e34177Bill00000014bill@helmethouse.commrbrucepritchettpowerchutes@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Message Posterthepritchetts@netzero.netgroups-email66.94.237.39SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on helmethouse.comNo, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4POP://50.0.0.198/1116253039$2e341771116253039